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Masters of Search episode 7: WHY GOOGLE WILL CRUSH CHATGPT | Kirk Williams, Founder @ ZATO PPC Marketing | #7 cover art
EP 07·Nov 19, 2025

WHY GOOGLE WILL CRUSH CHATGPT | Kirk Williams, Founder @ ZATO PPC Marketing | #7

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Show notes

Kirk Williams is the founder and owner of ZATO PPC Marketing, a US-based agency completely focused on Paid Search. Kirk has been the named the #3 Most Influential PPC Expert for 2025, his 9th year on this list.

📌 Check out https://zatomarketing.com/

▶ Let's connect! 🔗 Niklas on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/niklas-buschner/ Radyant on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/radyant/ Kirk on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/ppckirk/ ZATO on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/zatomarketing/

Transcript

Full conversation

via podigee
  • 00:00:00So welcome to a new episode of the Masters of Search Talks.
  • 00:00:03I'm super happy to introduce today's guest, which is Kirk Williams, who is the founder and owner of Zetoo PPC Marketing, a US-based agency completely focused on paid search.
  • 00:00:15Kirk has been named the number three most influential PPC expert for twenty twenty five.
  • 00:00:22Congrats, by the way, on that one.
  • 00:00:24Really, really great.
  • 00:00:25And it's actually his ninth year on this list.
  • 00:00:29I'm not sure if there's anyone else in the world that has been on this list as often as he did.
  • 00:00:36So big congrats.
  • 00:00:39Let's start with a quick intro.
  • 00:00:41So Kirk, how would you describe Zeta in your own words?
  • 00:00:46Yeah, so Zeta, whatever, you know, you can say however you want as long as you don't forget us, right?
  • 00:00:54So we're a small, we say sometimes micro agency just focused on Google ads, Microsoft ads, and primarily in the e-commerce realm, we do have some lead gen as well.
  • 00:01:06And our idea, you know, has been just to really deliver excellent services on the Google and Microsoft ad side for, you know, for our clients.
  • 00:01:17And so in some ways, like no different than any other agency out there, but, and I'm sure we'll talk about this.
  • 00:01:23And then there's, I think, some, some things that do make us a little bit different as well, that I'm happy to go into.
  • 00:01:31Yeah.
  • 00:01:31So, so other than that, not to be too dismissive of us, but in some ways, like, yeah, we're Google ads agency.
  • 00:01:39Very nice very nice.
  • 00:01:41So you already mentioned this keyword of a micro agency.
  • 00:01:45I also heard a Podcast or an interview where you said yes, basically like boutique micro how you want to call it.
  • 00:01:53But I'd like to understand a little bit of this reasoning behind it because sometimes agencies rather tend to make themselves bigger than they are and you really openly play that card of Being small.
  • 00:02:07like.
  • 00:02:07what's your reasoning?
  • 00:02:10Yeah, so first, I think it's helpful to distinguish between let's let's terms matter.
  • 00:02:19And sometimes you say a word and everyone has a different definition of what that word is, right?
  • 00:02:23So in some ways, it's kind of like, hey, whatever you think, here's at least how I'm defining it, you can even disagree, at least you know that, right?
  • 00:02:31I in my brain, I separate the idea of let's say scaling aggressively.
  • 00:02:36and in profitable growth.
  • 00:02:40And so I don't know if I've ever been against the idea of smart profitable growth.
  • 00:02:47And I can talk more about kind of like how I would see that.
  • 00:02:51But I think there's been a lot of pushback in my mind against the idea of scaling aggressively, if it does not continue, especially to fulfill, you know, the purpose for which your business exists.
  • 00:03:05If it if it kind of has long-term negative effects on your and everyone else's.
  • 00:03:11You know emotional and mental health and all this stuff.
  • 00:03:13So I think there's you know various things.
  • 00:03:15we can go in there in through there, but at some level You know, I started this as a single person consultancy never intended and didn't really know how to grow it.
  • 00:03:25past that There's six of us and now and a couple of freelancers who help as well And we're just kind of and this has been going for like fourteen years.
  • 00:03:35So also I know you know a lot of people who have started agencies after me and are just exponentially larger and that doesn't even mean they're wrong right.
  • 00:03:44So in some ways there's just some level of like.
  • 00:03:46I'm just doing the best I can with the tools and ability I have while still trying to grow that knowledge.
  • 00:03:52Especially on the process management side without then also losing.
  • 00:03:58but I believe is such a key part, which is the core service quality.
  • 00:04:01I just want to make sure that we do really well at what we say we do, which is Google ads.
  • 00:04:06So
  • 00:04:09that's a really interesting thing.
  • 00:04:11I mean, you did this TED talk, I think, about what you call the concept of stop the scale.
  • 00:04:19And you already mentioned like these different trains of thoughts between profitable growth.
  • 00:04:25um and um unhealthy scaling or aggressive scaling.
  • 00:04:30so let's let's dig a little bit deeper.
  • 00:04:32can you like for everyone that might not have seen the tab talk can you give us like the the the key takeaways from your philosophy?
  • 00:04:43yeah definitely um.
  • 00:04:44i think some of this was born out of a a frustration at the at how people use and misuse the word success in a business context, especially about a business, you know, is that is that business successful?
  • 00:04:56Is that business owner successful?
  • 00:04:58And what I found is that, you know, what what people mean, ninety nine point nine percent of the time is, is that business making a lot of money?
  • 00:05:08And in a lot of ways, even like revenue, right, like gross revenue, who cares what their profitability is?
  • 00:05:13And I just I just have really i just i just really disagree with that like the more the longer i live and the more i do this i disagree with that being the definition of success.
  • 00:05:27let's just call it money and and some sort of aggressive growth rate.
  • 00:05:32and and again i actually want to be careful to say that does not mean i think it is let's say wrong or always unhealthy or something like that.
  • 00:05:40right.
  • 00:05:40just because a business doubles year over year does not mean it's wrong.
  • 00:05:46For the most part, I think that what happens is that if you define success primarily in terms of money, then what happens is I do think you actually start to make decisions that can impact other metrics of success.
  • 00:06:01And so in my TEDx talk, I try to define, you know, well, then what is success, right?
  • 00:06:05If it's not just money.
  • 00:06:06And I basically pulled out three things that I think it is.
  • 00:06:12We talked about this already a little bit, but are you accomplishing the purpose for which your business exists?
  • 00:06:17For me, that's Google Ads services.
  • 00:06:20So at some level, while there's for sure going to be, let's say, ups and downs with quality of service, I want to make sure if I'm selling Google Ads services that we know Google Ads and we're doing that well.
  • 00:06:31um if my scaling increases at a significant enough rate where that that becomes uh a a hindrance to growth long term if you will i.e you do such bad work that eventually you become known as an agency who cares more about your scaling and that sort of thing.
  • 00:06:47you hear those stories all the time.
  • 00:06:48to me that's that's unhealthy that's not success right.
  • 00:06:52so there's that.
  • 00:06:53and then the second one is there there does need to be some level of like Of.
  • 00:06:59I call that sustainability and I mean that in terms of like your business being able to sustain itself which a lot of times is profitability.
  • 00:07:06and you know again like you while while while success isn't.
  • 00:07:11solely about money, then there is some level where, like, we are in the realm of money, right?
  • 00:07:17I mean, that's what a business.
  • 00:07:18That's what, um, Taylor Holiday, uh, owner of Common Thread Collective, super smart guy in DDSVC space.
  • 00:07:23He's, he's, you know, been influential in me and helping me think through some of the stuff.
  • 00:07:26And, and, you know, he, he says that, and I think rightfully so, like, you know, it's a for-profit business.
  • 00:07:31That means there is a core component of profitability.
  • 00:07:35that really is a big part of that.
  • 00:07:37So so again, I do think there's some level of like.
  • 00:07:39your business isn't going to survive even if you're accomplishing your purpose if you're giving your services away.
  • 00:07:43and then and then finally the third thing that I introduced and I've You rarely hear this talked about in in success language, although it's becoming more of a concept is the idea of Call it what you want, you know mental health emotional health, you know the human well-being The whole human well-being.
  • 00:08:04You know physical is part of that.
  • 00:08:05and and I think that's where like I've looked around and I'm like, okay, let's look at a person who's quotation marks a successful business owner.
  • 00:08:12And again, a lot of people are like, well, how big is their business?
  • 00:08:15And I look at them, I'm like, you know, maybe, maybe all of their relationships are wrecked, their kids never want to talk to them again.
  • 00:08:23You know, every relationship they have is based somewhere around money, they don't really have friends, they're not able to, you know, exercise regularly.
  • 00:08:31So, you know, at some point, that's going to catch up with them.
  • 00:08:34You know they're not sleeping well because they're always on the phone.
  • 00:08:37at some level that is not a sustainable lifestyle and like i do not think that's the mark of a successful business person.
  • 00:08:44um frankly because to me like you might have one at let's call it the game of business but long term.
  • 00:08:51I don't know if you wanted the game of life and so to me that's where that weird.
  • 00:08:56Conflation of life and business does have to come together.
  • 00:08:59So so those are kind of the three ways where it's like man.
  • 00:09:02if you can check those boxes I don't care how big your business is or how small I Like.
  • 00:09:07I'd happily call you success and that's and that's that's what I. yeah, that's my TEDx talk.
  • 00:09:11in a nutshell
  • 00:09:13Do you know Rand Fishkin from spark Toro?
  • 00:09:15Mm-hmm.
  • 00:09:16Yep.
  • 00:09:17I once heard this interview with him where he talked about his idea of the calm company And he basically positioned this idea That he has for spark Toro and also I think his other business which is snack bar studio although This is not talked about so much.
  • 00:09:33So it's rather spark Toro this audience research tool and he talked about how he runs this company as a as he calls it calm company.
  • 00:09:41So not constantly putting out fires etc.
  • 00:09:44having also a lot of the stuff he talks about resonates with what you just mentioned.
  • 00:09:50And he puts it into contrast to like, I think the business that most people know him from, which is Mars, where he basically was running a so-called
  • 00:10:00big
  • 00:10:01startup that has, I don't know if it if it's experienced hyper growth, but at least a certain level of scaling.
  • 00:10:10And now he's doing like, so I found it interesting in this one interview, he was saying like, yeah, we're just doing one point five million in ARR and we tend to see this as something that is small because we're always confronted with the next hundred million dollar ARR announcement and the next not now chat to be hitting or may I hitting a billion in monthly revenue but I mean can be a super healthy profitable and fulfilling business right.
  • 00:10:42Mm-hmm.
  • 00:10:43Yeah.
  • 00:10:43Yeah, exactly.
  • 00:10:44And I mean, that's where some of that some of that then goes into our humanity.
  • 00:10:50like who are we like what?
  • 00:10:52what are our past experiences?
  • 00:10:53What are our personalities?
  • 00:10:54and also being self aware of that and then like if your business owner building a business around that or at the very least and here.
  • 00:11:01so here's where like I i try to be with that stuff i just i have zero business expertise i have zero finance and economics expertise teaching whatever i'm i'm i'm learning all this as i go making a ton of mistakes.
  • 00:11:16um It's not a surprise to anyone and it shouldn't be that my business is probably not growing as quickly as maybe someone else who would be, who would still check off all those success boxes that I talked about, but probably would have Zato be bigger.
  • 00:11:31And some of that is like, I've also come to an acceptance of that within myself of knowing, like rather of being hard on myself of just like accepting like, hey, there are certain things where I don't maybe have the opportunity of Learning xyz mistake beforehand.
  • 00:11:47So I've made that in my business because I made that in my business.
  • 00:11:50That's also impacted my ability to grow and and like that's fair.
  • 00:11:53That's part of it.
  • 00:11:54So so that's also where I'm trying to be careful not to.
  • 00:11:59I just really want to be careful like to avoid various things in terms of certain numbers or stuff like that or even like growth rates.
  • 00:12:06What's a what's a what's a correct growth rate if you will and an incorrect growth rate?
  • 00:12:11I just It's too.
  • 00:12:12it's too complex for that and that's why i honestly think that's what i've been trying to do with like.
  • 00:12:16let's my tech stock is just be like hey, but maybe we can agree on these three things as what we're aiming for and if that's the case now take all of your expertise things you know.
  • 00:12:27Build a new process that and like do the very best you can with those and you might actually see a relatively quick growth rate because you might be able to figure out a process that allows your agency to deliver services.
  • 00:12:40At at the same level far quicker than I can because I haven't learned that same process and you might grow more exponentially because of that.
  • 00:12:47I mean props to that you know.
  • 00:12:48teach me that right.
  • 00:12:50so so again like still like learning and trying to figure that out.
  • 00:12:53I'd love to you know keep growing as I'm able.
  • 00:12:57I just I just don't really.
  • 00:12:59I just want to be really careful to try not to Get those three things.
  • 00:13:04and as a quick as a quick note to I also think and try to do this is like view that for my employees as well, which also does get in the way of like rapid growth frankly is is at some level when you're making choices.
  • 00:13:21To try to create a space where your employees also can pursue their own wellness and all that stuff.
  • 00:13:28And I don't mean like doing that for them.
  • 00:13:30I don't I don't mean as in you know the old Google way where it was kind of like hey come in here We have everything you need.
  • 00:13:36We're like your life now your home your family like.
  • 00:13:38that's not what I mean at all.
  • 00:13:40I mean actually hey Let's be as locked in as possible at work and then actually give you the time to go do that stuff and be well outside of work without me while I'm doing the same thing with my family right.
  • 00:13:50so that effort to do that also does have certain you know limitations.
  • 00:13:55we're just.
  • 00:13:55we're just not typically taking on clients who communicate with us that they're going to want us on hand, like.
  • 00:14:04that's just not a good fit for us.
  • 00:14:06And yeah, so then that impacts our ability to grow.
  • 00:14:09So yeah, hopefully that gives additional information on that.
  • 00:14:15I can still imagine that if clients see you wherever, maybe on LinkedIn, YouTube, on this PPC expert list, They probably come to you because they want to experience some sort of growth or scaling because they probably don't bring you on or bring your team on because they just want to have an account managed within the status quo.
  • 00:14:40And this is where you come in with your idea of profitable growth.
  • 00:14:43So maybe you can probably not share your whole secret source, but can you take us a little bit with you behind the scenes of Like?
  • 00:14:54how do you approach this like?
  • 00:14:56what are specific things where you say this?
  • 00:14:59this is the line between or there I draw the line between aggressive scaling and unhealthy scaling and then profitable growth from like a How do I approach my clients projects perspective?
  • 00:15:11Yeah,
  • 00:15:12great question and some of that is it's actually in some ways a little easier to do that because math is involved.
  • 00:15:19So, you know, all the PPCers who, you know, PPCers tend to be a technical bunch and at some level it's like, I hate to say relatively easy, but there's some realm where it's fairly easy to see a client come in and this is where we do like to get into their account before we sign on with them.
  • 00:15:41We provide We call it like a discovery audit and there's actually a disagreement sometimes in the space of like if you should give an audit in the beginning and all this stuff.
  • 00:15:54One of the reasons we do an audit is so we know the account and have a better idea of pricing and also just like, just have a better idea of even if this is a fit for us actually, as well as provide like demonstrate our value and walk through that.
  • 00:16:10So anyway, so I land in the camp of like, yeah, we'll do.
  • 00:16:12we'll put a few hours into your account at no charge because I actually think it's beneficial for both of us.
  • 00:16:17And one of the things that's pretty easy to do to be honest is to look in there and be like.
  • 00:16:22You know, we're gonna, we're gonna look at some of the things like, okay, what are you already, what are you already targeting in terms of keywords?
  • 00:16:28You know, is your product feed already optimized?
  • 00:16:29There's, there's, there's a lot of, there's a lot of stuff that are let's say basic best practices where if they're already maximizing out what we would typically change in an account as it is.
  • 00:16:41And then we see things like maybe they're already getting quite a bit of the search and pressure share.
  • 00:16:47So it's not like there's a ton of room beyond what they're already targeting.
  • 00:16:52If we look in there and we're like, hey, you do need someone to manage this, keep things up to date and all that, but you're asking for a two hundred percent growth in the next year.
  • 00:17:05And what I'm looking in your account is And so this is where like I'm not telling them you should or shouldn't scale because that's my philosophy That's that's not what's going on.
  • 00:17:15What I'm saying is you are unable to do that in this Google ads account.
  • 00:17:20and what?
  • 00:17:21if you want to do that if you want to have two hundred percent growth, you know, we're you're gonna have to figure out an actual business scaling mechanism that allows for that.
  • 00:17:32because because squeezing the Google the keywords more by bidding more is not the route to do that.
  • 00:17:39And so some that's what I mean by.
  • 00:17:40it's almost sometimes a little bit of an easy answer, because we can just look and just say like, I don't think your objectives are, are realistic.
  • 00:17:50And, and, and again, like, typically what happens is, we never have to, you know, disengage from that sort of prospect call, because you know, a lot of times like, you know, People don't tend to like to hear our objectives aren't realistic.
  • 00:18:04They're going to go find someone who promises that.
  • 00:18:07So that's an example of where, you know, we might help walk them through, you know, maybe there is some opportunity, unless a YouTube or that, because YouTube is more of that type of funnel like demand creation platform.
  • 00:18:18But but a lot of times it's like hey if you that's where we're also trying to.
  • 00:18:22even though we only work with Google ads we also try to learn what else are you doing with marketing?
  • 00:18:26are you know how aggressive is your your meta strategy?
  • 00:18:29what are you doing with your creative.
  • 00:18:31Just to get an idea of what are the actual potential that they can get in front of more people and scale.
  • 00:18:38And then we can help bring the demand capture side of google along with that.
  • 00:18:42but we're not creating that demand in a way that's gonna scale that based on on what we're seeing in this account let's say and that's.
  • 00:18:49That's pretty much exactly the sort of conversation we have so.
  • 00:18:53But now if you tell them that google ads alone won't be enough and if they.
  • 00:18:59Already see you as a credible person and they feel like hey, you know performance marketing I mean some people don't think this from my experience.
  • 00:19:07business owners or founders don't necessarily think in this category of Google ads and meta ads and whatever ads but they think in brand and performance and maybe they know SEO.
  • 00:19:18but I can imagine them asking you to.
  • 00:19:21so can you take care of our meta ads?
  • 00:19:23do you also offer it?
  • 00:19:25and as you said I know that you don't offer it, but I can imagine that it was at least tempting at times to also offering or maybe not.
  • 00:19:35Maybe can you share just a little bit about why you deliberately chose not to offer it and maybe even if you had doubts about it or just your whole like thought process around this?
  • 00:19:49Yeah, sure.
  • 00:19:51So we actually offered it for about a year, I think back.
  • 00:19:55gosh i don't remember when this was maybe like eight years ago or something.
  • 00:20:00i actually hired someone specifically for this um and you know he started working on the social side of things and i was doing google ads side and um like like long long.
  • 00:20:14story short i i just don't like social ads.
  • 00:20:18And as I found, what I found was there's such a significant difference between meta ads and Google ads for a small agency.
  • 00:20:28At that time, it was two of us.
  • 00:20:31And what I found was kind of the age-old, like this is distracting me so much from the Google ads side.
  • 00:20:42Because it's so different, there's so much energy and investment and brain power and time needed to try to figure out every single aspect of starting this new thing, right?
  • 00:20:55So what someone could do maybe, and this is what others have done, is then you're like, okay, I'm gonna find someone who actually does know all that stuff.
  • 00:21:02You know shorten that learning curve which means you're you're hiring someone that you're paying a lot of money Because they're like already basically a director level and they can help start that which I think that's a totally legitimate way Let's say to add social or something, but especially with like I was I was little.
  • 00:21:19I didn't have a ton of you know cash profitability in terms of just being able to hire someone else on.
  • 00:21:24I'm just.
  • 00:21:25I wasn't interested in like partnering with someone.
  • 00:21:28Um, you know that that maybe is the other way someone could do.
  • 00:21:31it is basically you you partner and uh, so so all of that is at some level I I step back In my personal journey and looked at that after we'd done it for about a year and I was like a. I just hate Facebook ads B. This is sucking so much time away.
  • 00:21:51Like see we still haven't.
  • 00:21:52I mean this is like seven or eight years ago.
  • 00:21:54We still haven't figured out how to price this stupid thing because I would even back then I was very aware of how creative focused it was and there really wasn't.
  • 00:22:03I don't remember there being.
  • 00:22:04now there are lots of interesting creative ways to price Facebook.
  • 00:22:08I've I'm aware of from other agencies back then.
  • 00:22:10there really wasn't so I couldn't.
  • 00:22:13I wasn't cracking that code.
  • 00:22:15and Then like the the last thing I think I was counting numbers.
  • 00:22:18now remember which one I was on maybe CRD or three or four or whatever.
  • 00:22:22But like the last and maybe the biggest is all of that stuff was preventing me from investing in Google, which was trying to grow the Google side.
  • 00:22:31So we were basically, we were, we were getting leads and just kind of constant potential for growth on the Google ad side.
  • 00:22:40And I was limiting that by focusing on the Facebook stuff.
  • 00:22:43So at some point, I just decided, You know, I'm gonna I'm gonna ride the horse that got me here, you know to borrow a phrase from the wild west, you know Let's just let's go all in on Google and decided to do that.
  • 00:22:57and Yeah, I don't know if that'll change in the future sort of a deal But for sure that's been what we've we focused on.
  • 00:23:05and you know, just kind of like everyone does I use that As a selling thing, you know, I'll talk quite a bit about how like we just we just try to keep our brains focused on on the google side of things so we can really stay up to date on all of the stuff that changes because there's endless stuff and you know and and like we know our stuff.
  • 00:23:25so
  • 00:23:27i can still imagine a few folks in the audience having this thought in mind.
  • 00:23:31so maybe not pvc people but maybe like business owners founders or just like broader marketing people thinking hey kirk.
  • 00:23:42but Google is introducing all these automation features and there's like performance max and now there's like AI max and Like where is this?
  • 00:23:53the where's still the space that you can come in with?
  • 00:23:56your human Already has this touch of outdated?
  • 00:24:02so non AI Expertise to actually make a difference.
  • 00:24:06because I mean a lot of agencies and I also know some some some bigger and like full-service agencies I see them not having the same level of detail in this specific channel, but I also speak to a lot of people that are not so deep in the space and they see all these announcements, etc.
  • 00:24:27and they just really... I think their imagination is just limited because they don't really know.
  • 00:24:35So I'd like to just hear from you where you see... Your team yourself your expertise making the difference.
  • 00:24:43Mm-hmm Yeah, so well and the funny thing is you know tagging in our last conversation about so Facebook and social and that That's where adaptability, you know evolving with changes is so crucial Again, like maybe there is a realm where in the future Actually a really solid business is the one who and I know some like this where maybe it's that they own the creative and the conversation stuff because of all of automation within Google and Facebook right.
  • 00:25:14So it's a little bit easier to manage.
  • 00:25:15but then that crucial part of just that strategy and stuff is part of that we you know.
  • 00:25:19I mean that that could be something we evolve into.
  • 00:25:21I don't know.
  • 00:25:23Right now to answer your question like right now I haven't really seen a strong desire for that because.
  • 00:25:31what I am finding in this ever-changing world.
  • 00:25:36So no one take anything that we talk about as the law, but just as tips and advice and apply that as you see fit.
  • 00:25:43What I'm seeing is that, first of all, in some ways, things have never been simpler for Google Ads Management, and in some ways, they've never been more difficult.
  • 00:25:56And that is because, Like maybe the bluntest way to put it is if you get on the wrong side of AI.
  • 00:26:04It's very difficult to troubleshoot why you're on the wrong side of AI and how not to be on the wrong side.
  • 00:26:11And so, um, so, so what I'm finding is like really, uh, there is in some ways like less work and simplicity, right?
  • 00:26:20There's like, you know, we're just not going in and pulling these massive spreadsheets of keywords and making these huge.
  • 00:26:26numbers of manual bids and things like that right now.
  • 00:26:31So there's less work like that.
  • 00:26:33But then the work that is needed from a human is more on the, I think, implementation side, and then like the troubleshooting and strategic side.
  • 00:26:43And that's like more crucial than ever to actually get correct.
  • 00:26:48And I think what you see right now is when someone's like, Oh, hey, I can do this.
  • 00:26:53And they hop in, let's just say Google shopping feed, right?
  • 00:26:56Um, yeah, just connect the feed get get things rolling.
  • 00:27:00And then they're.
  • 00:27:00they're frustrated because what you know why our product showing up in my shopping ads that um that i'm they're not even live on my website and it's like you know.
  • 00:27:10Us pbc experts are like well.
  • 00:27:12I think I know this even before I see your merchants in our account.
  • 00:27:15But give me fifteen seconds and yep sure enough you're found by google's turned on you know.
  • 00:27:19so like turn that off because you're you're.
  • 00:27:21it's because google's automatically finding twenty one products that are like old products that somehow you still have live in the back end with Shopify and somehow Google found them, but you don't want to advertise them.
  • 00:27:30that.
  • 00:27:32That is a great example of how that is an easy button to push.
  • 00:27:37But if you just don't really know what you're doing or to look for, it actually can be a problem, branding costs and all that.
  • 00:27:46So I think that's one of those things where if I have to guess and look in the future, I absolutely think humans and PBC are still very intertwined.
  • 00:27:55I do think that probably on the service level, so like third party vendors, so consultants, agencies, I personally think what that will look like is I think it's going to start shifting a little bit in a business model.
  • 00:28:07And again, this is a guess.
  • 00:28:10First of all, definitely someone having the awareness and the strategy and the ability to put all these things together as well as get conversion codes set up and stuff like that.
  • 00:28:22But I think that the actual ongoing maintenance after the setup may shift down in terms of fee costs.
  • 00:28:31So I wouldn't be surprised if we start seeing more aggressive setup costs.
  • 00:28:36and then lower ongoing retainers.
  • 00:28:38So it's more common maybe to have someone with more clients and still be able to service them all well with AI than right now.
  • 00:28:48I could be wrong on that, but that's one thought.
  • 00:28:52Or that someone who really is good, let's say at troubleshooting or things like that, an example right now would be when something gets suspended, Google Ads or Google Merge Center suspension, It's very difficult to figure out what's going on.
  • 00:29:06Google doesn't give you the information.
  • 00:29:07It's very frustrating.
  • 00:29:10We actually don't take those on anymore.
  • 00:29:12I used to try to help people.
  • 00:29:13I don't.
  • 00:29:14I have reasons for that.
  • 00:29:18Again, if someone has the patience, there are some out there who have the patience and the interest and the pricing model and stuff like that to do it.
  • 00:29:25That is a great opportunity to see an opportunity in the space where even with AI, Um, you know, you could make some cash if you know what you're doing on more than on more of the consultant type side where you actually can charge really quite a bit of money in that realm.
  • 00:29:40so anyways that kind of a long-winded rambly way of of kind of honoring that.
  • 00:29:45but That's kind of what I'm thinking.
  • 00:29:48We already tapped into a key topic that Where's where a lot is going on currently which is AI.
  • 00:29:57obviously so not only AI within Google Ads, which is one side of it.
  • 00:30:04But the other side is like AI changing the whole search landscape.
  • 00:30:09So let's think about the massive growth of chat GPT.
  • 00:30:15So I mean, reportedly, the last time now with the GPT-Five launch, it's seven hundred million weekly active users, which is a lot of users.
  • 00:30:25Then there has been the AI overviews rolled out.
  • 00:30:27So in the US, It's already been quite some time, but now also globally, now AI mode, so there's a lot of going on.
  • 00:30:35Do you already see your clients being affected by that and is there anything like that?
  • 00:30:42you already, were you already thinking about how to change your strategies or even change some some tactics or operational stuff in the accounts?
  • 00:30:53Yes.
  • 00:30:55So first of all, we're getting more leads from this stuff, which is really interesting.
  • 00:31:00We have a place to put in, hey, where'd you hear about us?
  • 00:31:03And I know that's not super accurate, but I've been surprised how many people have typed in something like ChatGPT, Grock, something like that.
  • 00:31:11Super interesting to me.
  • 00:31:13We haven't really done
  • 00:31:14anything differently in terms of AEO or that sort of thing.
  • 00:31:18You know, but but so yes, you know, I think it is it is working its way into the business world in terms of products and service sales, right?
  • 00:31:27So my understanding is, you know, let's talk Gemini for a second, which which, um, you know, Gemini feeding, um, AI, you know, AI overviews and Google, um, there are ad ad tests and low examples, let's say of ads being run.
  • 00:31:45So first of all, like.
  • 00:31:48No one in any way is surprised that absolutely at some point we all just know that's going to increase.
  • 00:31:55right ads are gonna increase in there.
  • 00:31:58You know who knows when that'll be exactly, but absolutely who Google's gonna push more in there.
  • 00:32:03So it's it's not if it's when and and to my understanding, and please feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, to my understanding, the only way to get in AI overviews I believe is PMAX, AIMAX, and I think broad match keywords.
  • 00:32:17Is that correct?
  • 00:32:18Is that your understanding?
  • 00:32:20It could be the case, but you are always one step ahead in the US to us compared in Europe, especially due to all this regulation with Digital Services Act, Digital Markets Act.
  • 00:32:30So I would say generally yes, but it's still something where we don't know for sure, I would say, but yeah,
  • 00:32:38that's fair.
  • 00:32:40Well, at the very least, be aware of that, right?
  • 00:32:44But I've already been hearing we're not the only ones, you know, other other agencies talking about this as well, you know, we've already been kind of thinking through.
  • 00:32:54Here's a very specific example, like, okay, hey, if shopping, if standard shopping ads aren't going to serve in AI overviews, then maybe we do need to test some form of, you know, feed only Pmax in an account where if we tested it in the past, you know, standard shopping one, we have some, you know, like that.
  • 00:33:13Gosh, maybe we do need to rethink testing feed only Pmax, if anything, just to be just so that we can be eligible for AIO ads, especially as that gets more.
  • 00:33:22So I think I think some of that is the answer right now is probably not.
  • 00:33:27here's exactly what you should do.
  • 00:33:28But at the very least, like have in your brain, more ads are going to be coming to AIO for sure.
  • 00:33:35There are only specific ways you can serve those ads.
  • 00:33:39You do need to start thinking now, and our team is already, you know, having these discussions.
  • 00:33:43like we do need to be thinking now.
  • 00:33:45If you have accounts where, you know, you've tested it, let's say AI max for search and not really liked it or that, at least be aware as ads and AIO increase to retest some of those things.
  • 00:33:58you know, and I what I would love to do, you know, down this is down the road, maybe others have already thought of this, I don't, I don't really know.
  • 00:34:04I would even love to kind of try to ponder and think through certain ways where, you know, maybe there are even certain ways to gear some of those campaigns more and more towards AIO as its own almost placement type of idea.
  • 00:34:18You know, query length or things like that, maybe I'm not sure how to how to think that through all that to say Absolutely be aware that that's that's changing the game quite a bit and there's a lot that could be discussed on interesting things in terms of even just like the difference between You know how searchers utilize AI overviews and and chat GBT and LLMs as opposed to You know the old-school Google ways of searching.
  • 00:34:45so there's conversations there as well.
  • 00:34:48So yeah a lot's changing and maybe the short thing is be aware of which campaign types can serve placements on those so that you're ready to test those when it's time.
  • 00:35:01So from your client focus, which is, as you said, primarily Ecom and a little bit of Legion, we also have chativity introducing these product recommendations, which is something that, so from, I mean, I think they don't publish any specific numbers about the usage of this specific feature.
  • 00:35:24but I can imagine just from my own testing people I talk to, and this is just completely anecdotal evidence, but that people really like this because they can enter a very specific query and then they get this nice product recommendation grid.
  • 00:35:41So, and there's also a lot of talk and there are some like, I think it's either API documentation or some sort of internal docs where they where there's evidence or at least hints of them partnering with Shopify and thinking about monetizing this whole thing.
  • 00:35:58So is this something that you're also thinking about?
  • 00:36:01So to put it like in a very simple question, if chatGPT would introduce a shopping ads format, would you be one of the early testers or would you rather wait until others burn their hands on it?
  • 00:36:18I so I like to keep an eye on what's going on and as I'm able test I'm actually I'm actually not one of the people who loves being always in the early stages of things just because you know of like.
  • 00:36:33there are also risks to that.
  • 00:36:36Probably what we would do with that is.
  • 00:36:38so in one sense to answer your question yes to me that's that's in terms that's included in the search universe right.
  • 00:36:45Um, so at least that's how I see it just the and and even let me define that a little bit like.
  • 00:36:51I just mean um someone like someone explicitly communicating what they Are wanting to know.
  • 00:36:59I guess to me that's that's search.
  • 00:37:01so to me llms are a graduated form of search But that's that's still search as opposed to you know more of like audience or demographic Who this person is like a description of a person and targeting them is very different than a person communicating what they're interested in.
  • 00:37:17So all that to say, and that's where I think historically, as I've noted, we
  • 00:37:22are a
  • 00:37:23search agency.
  • 00:37:24Yes, we've expanded into things like YouTube and that sort of thing.
  • 00:37:27And so all that to say, yeah, to me as ChatGPT comes out with that sort of things, I'd love to break into that.
  • 00:37:34And probably there are a couple of clients we have that tend to be um budget wise risk wise you know more interested and more willing to test something like that.
  • 00:37:43so probably what that looks like in our you know as a small agency is just like just find you know with someone who's interested who who wants to put some budget and then you know hop in there and test as well while leaving like the big exhaustive multi-account tests for the.
  • 00:37:58you know the bigger agencies and SaaS companies out there.
  • 00:38:00so
  • 00:38:01and but there are a lot of people especially from the US.
  • 00:38:04they're like This is this whole AI search monitoring tools that are currently popping up.
  • 00:38:11So from Profound, for example, in New York, I think, where they're headquartered, there's also a startup actually in Berlin, which is PKI.
  • 00:38:21So they are basically fueling this narrative of chagivity and obviously other AI search or AI interfaces being a replacement to Google.
  • 00:38:35Whereas there's like, I mean, it's always a matter of how we interpret the data, but there are at least multiple data points pointing towards people using it in addition to Google, or at least alongside Google.
  • 00:38:49So do you feel like, so if we are thinking about a year, two years down the road, do you think that the search volume on Google for products, and even services, but especially like commercial intent.
  • 00:39:04So I'm not talking about informational, very generic searches, but commercial intent around product and services.
  • 00:39:11Do you think the search volume on Google will actually stay stable or will it significantly decrease as some people actually tell us or try to make us believe?
  • 00:39:27I don't know.
  • 00:39:28And I'll ponder it a little out loud.
  • 00:39:32So, for sure, there is adoption on, you know, ChatGPT was super impressive in terms of their adoption rate.
  • 00:39:42So, there's a lot of interest.
  • 00:39:43Some of that is literally and only because they were first.
  • 00:39:48I mean, I truly believe that.
  • 00:39:49I think if, you know, and I understand all the stuff behind that with, in terms of Gemini and that and why, you know, they didn't release and all that stuff.
  • 00:39:58And then when they did release, it was kind of a you know, I'll use the better word like a crap show for a while there.
  • 00:40:07And it's definitely gotten better in terms of just like filtering the results and stuff.
  • 00:40:10But so then they got kind of some bad press.
  • 00:40:12So in some ways, like I feel like chat GPT is just my theory is still writing a little bit of that wave.
  • 00:40:21But like, people's habits die hard.
  • 00:40:25Google has Always been just such a place that people go Amazon product searches curiously stepped into that as as like people who begin a product search more do on Amazon now than Google.
  • 00:40:40That's a huge deal, right?
  • 00:40:42So so like Google's Google does not have an indestructible mode.
  • 00:40:46That being said I do think that because Gemini is is getting in so quickly now increasingly especially an overview in that that at the very least i think google has now saved quite a bit of what could have been a worse exodus.
  • 00:41:06and and so perhaps um you know some of these other uh you know chat gp stuff like that perfectly you know i i think they'll hang around kind of how microsoft ads does.
  • 00:41:15where it's kind of like it's always a smaller percentage.
  • 00:41:18I just don't think that Google is gonna die out in terms of searches just really crushing down.
  • 00:41:26And one of the reasons I say that I actually posted this a couple of weeks ago, and I know others are thinking this through too, but it's just really hard to, it's really hard to battle against an established, like decades established, trillion dollar company.
  • 00:41:51And part of that, and then one like Google that has such a history of innovation.
  • 00:41:57And I think they've really sucked at that.
  • 00:41:59the last like, you know, I don't know, five to seven years, I think they were just really like wallowing.
  • 00:42:06I think they got a little bit, you know, they got a little bit lazy in my opinion.
  • 00:42:11They got a little bit greedy.
  • 00:42:12I think they started running too hard after just like making as much profit as possible.
  • 00:42:19And I truly think that ChatGPT was a massive wake-up call.
  • 00:42:23And it's like the Google War Machine, if you will, has been started and churning the last year.
  • 00:42:32And I think it is just cranking up.
  • 00:42:36And one of the things that Google has is they have so many products across a wide variety of industries, verticals, and even they have like digital and even real world products, you know, maps and Waymo and all this stuff, right?
  • 00:42:55And so to me, that means as they as they begin employing Gemini, in all these products, as it keeps learning real world examples, it learns faster.
  • 00:43:06I just frankly, in thinking Google's gonna win the AI arms race, I know I'm a Google ads agency, but I didn't always think that and I actually, I do now.
  • 00:43:19So that's my belief.
  • 00:43:21So we'll see.
  • 00:43:23I find it quite convincing because I also see people like doing all sorts of comparisons.
  • 00:43:29So for example, the Nokia or BlackBerry iPhone comparison, where they said, hey, basically there was this legacy technology that seemed like an unbeatable player, but then there's this new kid around.
  • 00:43:42And the thing that I feel like most people are missing there is that they suppose that Google doesn't have the same technology as OpenAI.
  • 00:43:52Yeah, that that's exactly right.
  • 00:43:54I was just thinking that yes.
  • 00:43:55Yeah, sorry didn't shrub.
  • 00:43:56I'm like I got super
  • 00:43:57please.
  • 00:43:58Yeah, yeah No, that's exactly like.
  • 00:44:03blackberry was supplanted by a different product.
  • 00:44:06I the iPhone was not a phone like.
  • 00:44:09the iPhone was like a Different thing completely which is exactly how Steve Jobs sold it.
  • 00:44:15It was.
  • 00:44:16it's everything in your pocket, right?
  • 00:44:18That's that's more than a blackberry phone That you you nailed it like chat.
  • 00:44:23GPT and Gemini are the same thing like like yes Someone may say well, you know, I get better I get better results on XYZ or whatever and that's fair.
  • 00:44:31But they are at their core.
  • 00:44:34and LLM which which is why again, which is why to me?
  • 00:44:38because of that Yes, the new the newbie in the space open AI which I know they're owned by Microsoft at this point.
  • 00:44:44So there's some level of that power behind it, but even then Microsoft's different.
  • 00:44:49Yeah, I just I just think that it's not a different product.
  • 00:44:52And again, that's where I say that's where like all of a sudden Google is obsessing over innovating on this on this product.
  • 00:44:59They have a history of just.
  • 00:45:01they have a history and process even within like their engineering teams and the way they work.
  • 00:45:07that I think is just like that that they've.
  • 00:45:11they've learned that over decades.
  • 00:45:13i don't know.
  • 00:45:14i know i sound like a google shill but weirdly i was not this optimistic about this.
  • 00:45:19you know six months ago.
  • 00:45:21now i look around it's almost like i don't see how google could lose right now just because of of that of the learning potential across all those products.
  • 00:45:31so i don't know i could be wrong.
  • 00:45:34i've been wrong before
  • 00:45:36yeah but i also feel like the the biggest mistake most people are doing is they're are seeing Google as this ten blue links product, whereas if you actually look a little bit deeper into their roadmap, and you, I mean, now they have AI overviews, and if you look at AI mode, so my take, like to hear your thoughts on it, my take is if Google rolls out AI mode, basically what is the differentiation of Chatchapiti then anymore?
  • 00:46:03Because AI mode, so basically if you think about it, if you have a Google account, You already have all this context that, for example, now with the GPT-V release.
  • 00:46:12So one of the things they mentioned in their live stream is, hey, this is really cool.
  • 00:46:16Now you can connect Google Calendar and Gmail.
  • 00:46:20And I can imagine someone from Google sitting there watching this and just laughing out loud.
  • 00:46:24Because I mean, if you think about the context, and you mentioned this with all the different products, I think it's the same point.
  • 00:46:30If you think about AI mode, and if you're looking for a cool restaurant to go out on the weekend, Google knows how your calendar looks when you have time.
  • 00:46:40They know where you've been, like from Google Maps, reviewers, or your history, always depending on your privacy settings.
  • 00:46:46But let's be honest here, I mean, most people don't really go away from the default privacy settings, so they share everything.
  • 00:46:53So Google has all that.
  • 00:46:54They don't need an additional opt-in, whereas Chatchity has to back you for every little piece of context information.
  • 00:47:03So my key take was, and I want you to challenge me on that.
  • 00:47:08My key take was, if Google wrote an AI mode, Chatchity has lost basically most of its differentiation.
  • 00:47:17And I'm going to strengthen your argument here because... and I was just looking at this.
  • 00:47:22so these numbers could be different blah blah blah.
  • 00:47:25but but like overall the idea of the numbers does exist.
  • 00:47:28so you know you mentioned it looks like you know.
  • 00:47:31chat gpt has approximately eight hundred million weekly active users.
  • 00:47:35so a hundred and eighty yeah but a hundred and eighty interesting.
  • 00:47:40so a hundred and eighty million total users.
  • 00:47:43um that's interesting okay.
  • 00:47:48So I'm sorry, I'm not sure if I'm being dumb because I want to make sure I understand this.
  • 00:47:51How can they have eight hundred million weekly active users, but a hundred and eighty million total users?
  • 00:47:59Does that make sense?
  • 00:48:00It's probably then the pain.
  • 00:48:01No, it's probably the paying users or a specific sort of users.
  • 00:48:06OK, huh.
  • 00:48:07Anyways, OK, well, let's but let's go with the higher one.
  • 00:48:10So
  • 00:48:11yeah, the
  • 00:48:11million.
  • 00:48:13They confirmed seven hundred million weekly active users in the GPT.
  • 00:48:16five introduction live stream.
  • 00:48:18Okay, so a hundred million active users.
  • 00:48:21There are, there are one point eight to two and a half billion active Gmail users.
  • 00:48:27So, so like billion compared to million.
  • 00:48:30So here's again, here's what that suggests to me is people like simplicity.
  • 00:48:36People don't like complexity.
  • 00:48:38I know that was the same thing I said twice, but still to drive the point home.
  • 00:48:42People take the easier road.
  • 00:48:46And what that means to me is exactly what you said, which is, again, the Google has churned up its machine.
  • 00:48:53So as those other billion and a half users who aren't really actively maybe utilizing some sort of chat GPT or whatever, as they begin more and more to get into the space where they are catching up to the rest of us early adopters, who are they going to go with?
  • 00:49:13Are they going to start with some random new thing?
  • 00:49:16Or are they just going to use what is easy for them?
  • 00:49:19Because they already have a Gmail and Google account logged in, blah, blah, blah.
  • 00:49:22They're already used to Google.
  • 00:49:23Gmail users are probably using Google.
  • 00:49:26So if that's the case, as Google shifts AI mode to them and they begin adopting it, of course they're using Google AI mode.
  • 00:49:33So again, that's even just saying, that's supporting what you're saying, which is like the potential.
  • 00:49:39there's still a billion and a half people that are almost guaranteed to use Google AI mode as they become more used to using that.
  • 00:49:47They're not going to use chat GPT again.
  • 00:49:50I think, I think Google, Google wins.
  • 00:49:52So I'm convincing myself more as we have this conversation actually.
  • 00:49:57Yeah.
  • 00:49:58Yeah, the key problem is maybe to wrap up this AI part where we've warmed up.
  • 00:50:02The key problem I see is that you already said this explicitly or between the lines in one of your answers.
  • 00:50:11People see us as PPC guys as biased.
  • 00:50:14So they basically tell us, hey, you don't have another option to say that Google will win because otherwise your business model basically supporting people getting sales from Google.
  • 00:50:27will go away.
  • 00:50:28So what would you respond to them?
  • 00:50:30I mean, obviously we can respond with facts and numbers, but what would you say to someone that says, yeah, Kirk, you're really biased.
  • 00:50:39So how can you be neutral in this?
  • 00:50:44I mean, so I've had people say that online before and some of that is I'm just like, hey, read the rest of what I've written for fifteen years, which is I've also been accused of being anti-Google.
  • 00:50:54So I don't know, you know, If I'm being accused of both of those, I'm probably somewhere in the middle.
  • 00:51:01But let's say a prospective client is saying that.
  • 00:51:05That's weird to me.
  • 00:51:06It's just like, hey, I actually don't have long-term contracts.
  • 00:51:10So if you disagree, then if you think I'm biased, then You know you can try it and if you're not happy you can just stop spending money on them.
  • 00:51:27right.
  • 00:51:28so kind of this like listen to the argument.
  • 00:51:30if the argument makes sense like you know i guess give it a try.
  • 00:51:33um with google but also like you don't have to.
  • 00:51:36i mean at some level also like i don't i don't necessarily have to convince you or not.
  • 00:51:41um yeah i don't i don't know.
  • 00:51:43but but that's that's sometimes on some of those questions with the prospecting too.
  • 00:51:47that's where it was just like.
  • 00:51:47at the end of the day.
  • 00:51:49You're just gonna have to try this and if you're not seen and it's about the return.
  • 00:51:53So if you are seeing the return, you're happy sweet.
  • 00:51:55If you're not, then like fire us, stop on Google and go do something else.
  • 00:52:01But if I'm right, that means you're missing out on a pretty big opportunity.
  • 00:52:03So honestly, you probably should test it at some point.
  • 00:52:07So regardless of whether I'm biased or not, you should probably test this.
  • 00:52:10And if it's working, stick with it regardless of whether I'm biased or not.
  • 00:52:13I think that's my point.
  • 00:52:15It makes total sense to me.
  • 00:52:17we have the same conversations or we had same conversations and this is from from an SEO or like an organic search client we have, but because we offer both.
  • 00:52:27But we were actually starting with them in March this year.
  • 00:52:32And Google rolled out AI overviews in Germany from May.
  • 00:52:37So shortly after starting and their traffic, so the organic traffic.
  • 00:52:43took a big dip and they were pretty concerned.
  • 00:52:46but actually the funny thing is the conversions or like leads in their case were up significantly and we could actually draw a clear line.
  • 00:52:54because we are not believers and we like for a long time already are not believers in measuring organic search success as you wouldn't do it with paid search based on traffic but always based on conversions or actual business results.
  • 00:53:09but the business results were there.
  • 00:53:10but the funny thing is They were still because they were so primed on basically looking at this chart in the Google search console where you always want the traffic go from bottom left to top right, aka growth.
  • 00:53:24They were so primed on that that they always felt like, hey, this can't be real.
  • 00:53:28Like the traffic going down and the conversions going up can't be real.
  • 00:53:32And I feel like we have this dual role currently where we where we are service providers and educators at the same time.
  • 00:53:40And where we really have.
  • 00:53:41so I feel like this point you made is really resonates with me that you've also been anti google.
  • 00:53:46I feel like people in the google ad space.
  • 00:53:48They are the biggest fans and the biggest critics of google.
  • 00:53:52right with all the stuff also in the in the us going on with the anti-trust case etc.
  • 00:53:59Which is the way it should be really right?
  • 00:54:01I mean We're the ones closest to it and honestly we probably see things deeper than other people.
  • 00:54:07so it makes sense that we're gonna see hey, this is off or Hey, this is good.
  • 00:54:11So yeah, I just I just don't have any any issue with us.
  • 00:54:16I guess the way I've always tried to do it, I do really try online not to be like overly complete, if you will, as well as overly entitled.
  • 00:54:25There is some.
  • 00:54:26there is some level of acceptance that you just you have to do if you're going to work with Google or a big platform, which is At some level, whether I like it or not, I am playing in their sphere.
  • 00:54:38And what's the best way to get performance, you know, for my client or my business within this realm?
  • 00:54:46Increasingly, you know, for, you know, bad or good, I also see myself a little bit as wanting to be an advocate just for like what I think is good, you know, let's call it good as in the way Kirk sees good.
  • 00:55:00There are other ways of defining good, which I also admit.
  • 00:55:03And so some of that is like, I also will, and I have many times just said, Hey, I think like, I think auction manipulation, like saying, like squashing and some and RGSP and some of these other other ways of, of interacting with the auction in a way that the average advertiser does not believe is happening.
  • 00:55:25I think that's unethical.
  • 00:55:26I think you should stop.
  • 00:55:28And so like, again, like I also want I also try to do that and call that out when it's occurring.
  • 00:55:34But then also like if I'm like, oh my goodness, I'm looking at everything.
  • 00:55:37I'm like, gosh, Google has like a trillion dollars.
  • 00:55:40They're super cash heavy.
  • 00:55:42They have all of these products and like Gemini even even just in the last, you know, couple months, the amount that Gemini has been worked into workspace meets because we use Google for every.
  • 00:55:54all of this stuff is incredible.
  • 00:55:57And so I'm looking at all that.
  • 00:55:58I'm like, I don't think this comes from bias.
  • 00:56:00I think I'm just like, like the Google train is rolling.
  • 00:56:04Um, so anyway, so again, like I think I can say both of those things.
  • 00:56:08So yeah.
  • 00:56:10Um,
  • 00:56:11it's like, yeah, it makes total sense.
  • 00:56:13So as we've already warmed up, um, I think we can, we can dive into, uh, at least a couple of a little bit more technical questions.
  • 00:56:23Maybe the stuff we were talking about is already somehow technical for some people, but.
  • 00:56:29So beforehand, obviously, I asked a little bit around.
  • 00:56:33some people from my audience and also from the team have questions for you.
  • 00:56:36And we got at least two pretty interesting ones.
  • 00:56:40So the first one is actually, it's a little bit connected to what you just said in your last answer, which is, so Google acts as the auctioneer, the platform, and with smart bidding as a participant in the auction.
  • 00:56:54How fair can this system really be when Google says the rules moderates the auction and essentially bits through its own AI systems like performance max?
  • 00:57:05What's your take on that?
  • 00:57:08So I would say, so I've written pretty extensively on this and I would actually suggest your audience go and find those if they've not read some of those articles that I've written on this stuff.
  • 00:57:22Especially in terms of like trying to think through ad rank And and how that in you know influences automated bidding and you know that sort of thing.
  • 00:57:30so I've actually for years said if there was ever some sort of fraud or Unethical behavior happening.
  • 00:57:41There's a big if there not a not a confident there is.
  • 00:57:44so Google, please don't sue me if there is something shady going on.
  • 00:57:49Do you know how easy it would be to hide it in ad rank?
  • 00:57:51Because the ad rank formula is private, you know?
  • 00:57:56And the ad rank formula impacts your CPC.
  • 00:57:59So again, it was like the least surprising thing when the DOJ is talking to... Uh, I think it was Jerry Dishler, but I always forget there's like.
  • 00:58:07I think there's Phil Schindler and Jerry Dishler and I get those too confused.
  • 00:58:10I want to be careful because one of them is the one who got Interviewed and said the things like yeah, we shake the couch cushions and you know increase all the bids by ten percent when we were having a low low quarter.
  • 00:58:20Um, I think that was Dishler, but I don't remember.
  • 00:58:23Anyways, go look it up.
  • 00:58:25Um, all so all that to say.
  • 00:58:28Yeah, I just I really think that As an outsider I would be looking at the current state of the auction and and just saying okay, so Google exactly?
  • 00:58:41Google's the auctioneer.
  • 00:58:43So so so Google.
  • 00:58:44Google is the one.
  • 00:58:46Google is the one who receives the money the platform?
  • 00:58:51Google's the one who?
  • 00:58:53You know sets sets the bids Who determines increasingly with smart bidding what individual?
  • 00:59:00advertisers are paying for that bid.
  • 00:59:04There's not really a specific way for us to actually know anything about those bids, other than that.
  • 00:59:11that's what the bid is, right?
  • 00:59:14And then especially when you get things like auction floors that have had reserve prices, that sort of thing, auction reserve prices, you know, you get into all of that.
  • 00:59:23And I don't see how anyone could think that that's an ideal auction system.
  • 00:59:29And so to me, one of the key things, and I've stated this to Google behind open and closed doors more than once, is I understand that there are, I genuinely understand that there are concerns with bad actors gaming the auction system.
  • 00:59:48I actually have a lot of empathy for that.
  • 00:59:52So what I mean by that is someone who knows here are the exact specific ways that the auction works.
  • 00:59:58Um, would would kind of figure out how to game that.
  • 01:00:00Google has a lot of history working against bad actors like that.
  • 01:00:03super, you know, short example would be way back in the old days with SEO.
  • 01:00:07It's kind of like they're like, oh, wow, if they're good keywords on a page, let's rank it for them.
  • 01:00:11And then they learned, oh, you know, people are, you know, it's a white background.
  • 01:00:15People are putting the word in white.
  • 01:00:18You know, a hundred and fifty times on this background to rank better, right?
  • 01:00:21Um, so again as as people there are bad actors out there who will gain the system.
  • 01:00:26So google wants to be careful that.
  • 01:00:27and then also like there are ways that privacy regulations increasingly work into all of this stuff as well like There are other things that impact this as well.
  • 01:00:37I do understand that but um, some of my pushback with them is that Like there needs to be some way that we, the advertisers, the consumers have trust in you and trust in your system.
  • 01:00:52And I'm not a hundred percent sure how to do that with your current auction system, but for sure that needs to occur because of course we're going to question what's going on in that auction system when you control everything.
  • 01:01:06We have no idea what's going on in the inner workings.
  • 01:01:09And then in the last year, You know, a Google exec has admitted to the DOJ that, yeah, we increase bids when we want to to hit revenue goals.
  • 01:01:19Yeah, that's problematic.
  • 01:01:20That's a brand problem.
  • 01:01:21You should probably try to fix that.
  • 01:01:22So
  • 01:01:24follow up on that one.
  • 01:01:25Did you put any thought in the findings of or the experiments, let's say, like this of John Moran from like previously Solutions Aid, where he basically turned off smart bidding?
  • 01:01:37or try to game it with just using a conversion action like YouTube subscription and then seeing the CPCs of his campaigns immediately drop a lot, but then using like third-party attribution systems might just be your shopping system or Shopify or Hubsword or whatever and seeing like actually the leads and or conversions or sales being completely fine.
  • 01:02:04So did you did that cross your table?
  • 01:02:09It hasn't.
  • 01:02:11I will say that one example of maybe a similar thing that we've found is, let's just say like brand traffic.
  • 01:02:21So brand keywords, if we have an account where there's just very specific brand keywords, you know, they're high value.
  • 01:02:29We own the search results, that sort of thing.
  • 01:02:33We have found that certain bidding models If if kind of left unchecked.
  • 01:02:38so again the idea and this is where a good Google or good Google manager kind of understands this stuff and like does add checks and bounces to manage things well.
  • 01:02:46But if if left uncheck like let's say something like a row as a T row as on brand bidding We basically never do that because it just it just tends to always increase our costs per you know sale lower our profitability.
  • 01:03:00and that's happening because our CPCs are just rising.
  • 01:03:03where if we if we do brand Either either with Either with a target and pressure share where we do actually out of max CPC cap and we sometimes will kind of play around to find that sweet spot or even just manual bidding We've just found typically that we can get as much or more conversions as we had tried on some of those smart bidding models But but for significantly cheaper.
  • 01:03:26And you know so again that might be a little bit similar where it's kind of like okay.
  • 01:03:29It seems like Google wants to overpay for these brand auctions.
  • 01:03:34you know it can be it can be a tendency.
  • 01:03:36so again we you know we try to mitigate that.
  • 01:03:38i don't know if that's.
  • 01:03:40there are so many things going on that i hesitate to say that that's an example of let's call it fraudulent smart bidding because i just think there's too many things going on.
  • 01:03:49but it is something to be aware of and at least have you know different ways that you can try to mitigate that.
  • 01:03:55like you know like what i noted for switch and bidding models
  • 01:03:59speaking of smart bidding we got another question from from the audience beforehand which is also a little bit more technical, but interesting to hear a thousand that
  • 01:04:08which is
  • 01:04:09when smart bidding machine learning fails to properly anticipate clear seasonal patterns in your business, what's your approach to course correct without completely abandoning automated bidding?
  • 01:04:25We take kind of a more simplistic approach.
  • 01:04:31You know, so so there are SBA season, you know seasonality bid adjustments.
  • 01:04:36Some people, you know swear by them.
  • 01:04:38I don't know if we've found them be Like always.
  • 01:04:44They're definitely not what I would consider to be just an always like they just they just crush it.
  • 01:04:49I think they tend to be a little better.
  • 01:04:50Maybe I like for short-term adjustments Especially beyond two weeks.
  • 01:04:55We tend to more try to just manually Kind of tell the machine especially with smaller incremental adjustments leading up to a sale period.
  • 01:05:06Black Friday Cyber Monday is a great one where we tend to be increasing Our bids budgets and that like getting ready for this time so that by the time we get to BFCM We've already been like helping the machine like gear up for it.
  • 01:05:21Otherwise we found that it can struggle to you know to keep up with with some of those dramatic Spikes and that so and then kind of the same thing on the other side.
  • 01:05:30We kind of back it off with with incremental adjustments rather than just all you know.
  • 01:05:36Frank unit up or down the day before and after sort of deal
  • 01:05:41Makes no sense.
  • 01:05:43So we've crossed a wide variety of topics already and I think to to wrap up or Super interesting conversation probably could on.
  • 01:05:54I could go on talking for a lot longer, but to wrap it up a little bit.
  • 01:05:58so I'm for our audience of search marketers or founders or business owners.
  • 01:06:05if you think about two to three actionable tips you would give them That might not be overly complex But for running Google ads especially for e-commerce, but maybe even in general.
  • 01:06:20um, what would that be?
  • 01:06:23Yeah, um, I might.
  • 01:06:25I might annoy anyone because everyone because some of these things are are maybe what a more advanced person would think are, um, basic but to be honest, I still see them being huge misses.
  • 01:06:38Number one, conversion tracking.
  • 01:06:42I mean, I just like.
  • 01:06:45I know that's what everyone talks about all the time.
  • 01:06:47And it's one of those things where it's like, you know what, at this point, let's keep talking about it until it stops being a problem across so many accounts.
  • 01:06:54Um, yeah, conversion tracking is just one of those things that like we, it has, it has to be gotten right.
  • 01:07:02And it's so often not, I mean, we do so, you know, we do audits.
  • 01:07:06And this is, this is a pure guess, but I want to say, seventy five percent of the audits we do, there's something messed up in the conversions.
  • 01:07:14And so what I mean is like, I mean, like messed up.
  • 01:07:16I mean, like you're you're full on duplicating conversions.
  • 01:07:21I call this a mess up, you know, a new customer acquisition revenue target of like hundreds of dollars sort of deal where like that's just super inflated and and it's not it's not a plan because we always we always bring that to the client we're like hey just so you know this is occurring.
  • 01:07:37was that something you know you had you had planned on?
  • 01:07:39you know this is part of your calculation.
  • 01:07:41they're like we had no idea.
  • 01:07:42it's like yeah okay then then I call that a problem.
  • 01:07:45um uh yeah we just had that conversation with someone um a prospect and uh so so anyways I just think there are so many aspects to that.
  • 01:07:56or or you know the duplicate is really common because oftentimes what happens is they turn on like a shopping a Shopify app.
  • 01:08:04let's say that automatically adds in conversions.
  • 01:08:06and then maybe they had someone an alzify or someone um you know turn on Shopping conversions as well through a direct pixel.
  • 01:08:14But like both are running and both are set to primary and both are you know impacting it or like hey your double county conversions Be careful when you shut those off because you're you know, and so that's also part of it is just walking through.
  • 01:08:26all that to say It's just it's a problem like we have to figure out how to like do that do that better.
  • 01:08:33I think Google's working on that even trying to simplify tags things like that.
  • 01:08:38So that's one.
  • 01:08:40and then Um, oh one last thing on the conversion tracking thing.
  • 01:08:44just because we've seen this too just because things look okay doesn't always mean they are and It is so important.
  • 01:08:51I cannot stress this enough.
  • 01:08:53It is so important that you are checking in with your clients in terms of their internal numbers Ideally maybe especially if someone's tracking through you know a triple whale or other things like that you have got to have insight into internal numbers and just being aware of of the variants because there will always be some variants between Google ads and, you know, internal tracking, different attribution methods and that.
  • 01:09:18But like, there shouldn't be a massive variance or a variance that changes a lot.
  • 01:09:23So just like be aware of that and then start to look into that because there are also times where your pixel might not actually be firing on every single.
  • 01:09:30thank you page for, you know, a variety of complex reasons that I don't fully understand, but our developer tells us about, right?
  • 01:09:37So all that to say, it's just, it's so big, it's such a big one.
  • 01:09:41So that's, that's one, that's a big one.
  • 01:09:45And then, so I have three.
  • 01:09:46And so then the second one, again, kind of a simple basic one, but like, you got to optimize your shopping feeds.
  • 01:09:53If, if worse comes to worse, and the only things you do are make, get your titles keyword rich, make sure you have product types, accurate, you know, Yeah, I think those are like maybe maybe the two that we most often see to be a problem and then they're you know Of course get all the rest of your attributes in there filled in.
  • 01:10:15but even just the fact of like Go throw some keywords in your titles that people are searching for.
  • 01:10:21it is just an instant win.
  • 01:10:24You will just see traffic from those.
  • 01:10:27And that's more and more important as you know feed feed things are you know Pmax and that sort of thing.
  • 01:10:34So that the second and then I think the third Gosh, I'm trying to think if this is well, I'll turn it into an actionable one.
  • 01:10:42It's more let's say big picture strategic which is Again, like kind of starting kind of finishing where we started which is this idea of like understanding where Google is in your clients marketing funnel.
  • 01:10:58So the number one actionable tip I have with this is get access With clients willing to their top to a spreadsheet where you have their top line revenue numbers You have especially for us.
  • 01:11:12We're not running the meta ad spend so we need to see meta ad spend.
  • 01:11:16I like to see this on a week by week basis.
  • 01:11:19I like to have the client targets in there.
  • 01:11:20a lot of times they have like an MER target or or or whatever.
  • 01:11:26that might be where we have our google ads microsoft ads maybe there's like some you know email or whatever else is in there you see the total revenue numbers and start tracking trends over time especially as you start to pull out things like youtube push more spend into that and just begin identifying what actually occurs.
  • 01:11:45when when different levers are pressed and start to see trends long term in a client like that so you actually know.
  • 01:11:52What impact Google is having overall on the business or at the very least and because this has saved our butts more than once if someone's spending a hundred and fifty thousand a month on Facebook and they're spending fifty thousand on our Google Then when like suddenly something big changes in Facebook spend and they don't tell us that significantly impacts Google And it's something we don't know about.
  • 01:12:17And we wouldn't have, unless either A, they told us, or B, ideally, we just have the spreadsheet we can look at.
  • 01:12:22So we can start to see the impact that the business has, that the business is having with Google and not just be in our own numbers.
  • 01:12:31So those are probably the three that I would suggest everyone should be aware of in Ecom PPC.
  • 01:12:38Awesome.
  • 01:12:39Like, there was so much value in there.
  • 01:12:43I think people should be incredibly grateful for that.
  • 01:12:47So, Kurt, this has been a really, really deep, interesting... Like, it felt like we've already spoken over an hour, but it felt like time just went by so quickly.
  • 01:13:02I can't thank you enough for that.
  • 01:13:03Now, if people... And I think a lot of people will feel like... This guy is smart.
  • 01:13:10I like how he's thinking.
  • 01:13:11I like to follow him.
  • 01:13:12I like to see more of his stuff.
  • 01:13:14Maybe I even want to work with him.
  • 01:13:17Where can people find you?
  • 01:13:18Where should they reach out?
  • 01:13:20How to get in your realm?
  • 01:13:23Yeah, I'm PBC Kirk.
  • 01:13:25pretty much on every social media platform.
  • 01:13:27I use some more than others.
  • 01:13:29Got my start on Twitter.
  • 01:13:32So I still hang around there even though it's changed a lot.
  • 01:13:35I'm on LinkedIn, so yeah, connect with me there.
  • 01:13:37And then ZatoMarketing.com is our agency, so.
  • 01:13:41Very nice.
  • 01:13:41So people, go check out Kirk.
  • 01:13:43Go check out everything he's doing.
  • 01:13:45I think he's great.
  • 01:13:47Kirk, thanks so much.
  • 01:13:48It was a really great conversation.
  • 01:13:50And I think, yeah, everybody that has additional follow-up comments, put it down in the comment section below, and I'll make sure that Kirk answers them.
  • 01:14:01Yeah, or hit me up on social too.
  • 01:14:03I mean we can.
  • 01:14:03we can chat and teach others as well on in comments, so
  • 01:14:08Super nice.
  • 01:14:09So Kirk all the best to you and keep crushing
  • 01:14:13Thanks.