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Masters of Search episode 40: The website as we know it is dying | James Ward, Head of Digital Experience @ Personio cover art
EP 40·May 22, 2026

The website as we know it is dying | James Ward, Head of Digital Experience @ Personio

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Show notes

The website used to be the shop window. Now buyers do half their research inside an LLM before they ever land on it, and the role of the site itself is starting to shift.

My guest today is James Ward, Head of Digital Experience at Personio, one of Europe's fastest-growing HR tech companies, where he leads web strategy, SEO, content and CRO across multiple international markets. Before Personio he spent years at Salesforce and ADP, so he's seen this shift play out from inside both enterprise giants and a fast-moving scale-up.

We dug into what happens when your buyers already know everything about you before they hit your site, why your own Wikipedia page might be quietly undermining your positioning, and whether websites are heading toward becoming databases for LLM front ends.

What we covered in this episode

  • Why Personio's Wikipedia page was quietly miscommunicating their ICP to LLMs, and how a single line of off-site content can undo your entire positioning strategy
  • The reverse-prompting exercise every marketing leader should block out half a day for before buying any AEO tooling
  • Why "dark AI traffic" is forcing a rethink of the website itself, from curated navigation paths toward prompt-based, deeply personalized experiences
  • The shift from technical SEO hacks to brand narrative and reputation management as the real AEO lever
  • Why Reddit hype has already peaked, and where first-party content and third-party listicles now sit in the AI visibility stack
  • How AI is turning specialists back into T-shaped marketers, and why James thinks everyone (yes, even content writers) should be building with Claude Code or Lovable
  • Why traffic is becoming a vanity metric at Personio, and what they measure instead in an era where LLM citations, branded organic and direct all blur together
  • Whether the future of B2B SaaS buying happens natively inside ChatGPT, and what that means for the role of your website

▶ Let's connect! 🔗 Niklas on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/niklas-buschner/ Radyant on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/radyant/ James on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/jameswarddigital/ Personio on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/personio/

Transcript

Full conversation

via podigee
  • 00:00:00For me, my passion is always laid within the world of digital experience and building new experiences trying to kind of always be at the forefront if what those experiences look like in how they're evolving.
  • 00:00:10The website is the shop window versus all our competitors although... Increasingly, we see that shop window starting to diversify out into other channels.
  • 00:00:19So how do you see that basically changing?
  • 00:00:21How we have to think about the website and work with a website?
  • 00:00:24this is doing my phone kind of most interesting at the minute.
  • 00:00:27actually keeps me awake at night.
  • 00:00:29The most is thinking what role in the future?
  • 00:00:32What does it become?
  • 00:00:34before we dive in your listening to the masters of search podcast?
  • 00:00:40Each week, I sit down with some of these modest people around the world in SEO and AI search to bring you their strategies mental models.
  • 00:00:48And top pieces of actionable advice.
  • 00:00:50if You enjoy this podcast don't forget to like and subscribe.
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  • 00:00:57It helps us get top-notch guests and create The best possible content for you.
  • 00:01:01let's dive into today's episode.
  • 00:01:03most conversations about AI search right now focus on visibility and rankings.
  • 00:01:08My guest today is thinking about something bigger.
  • 00:01:11What happens when your buyers already know everything about you before they ever visit your site and what that means for the entire digital experience you built?
  • 00:01:21James Ward, head of Digital Experience at Personio one of Europe's fastest growing HR tech companies where he leads web strategy SEO content and zero across multiple international markets.
  • 00:01:32In this episode, we'll dig into what he calls quote-unquote dark AI traffic.
  • 00:01:37While your own Wikipedia page might be quietly undermining you positioning why BtoB buyer expectations are about to fundamentally shift and whether websites as we know them heading toward becoming databases for LLM front ends.
  • 00:01:51Welcome to the podcast, James.
  • 00:01:53Hey there Nicholas!
  • 00:01:54Great to be here and super excited to talk with you today.
  • 00:01:58Yeah thanks so much.
  • 00:01:58I think There's SO MUCH in it And already from our pre-talk...I felt like there are so many ideas that i want get your perspective on but we have to give our listeners a little bit of your personal background.
  • 00:02:13So how did you end up leading digital experience at Personio?
  • 00:02:19The million dollar question and yeah, really ended up here as a result of working in combination demand generation.
  • 00:02:30And broader digital marketing and web products ownership for kind of twelve or more years?
  • 00:02:40For me my passion is always Laid with in the world of digital experience and building new experiences trying to kind of always be at the forefront of what those experiences look like, how they're evolving.
  • 00:02:52And you know for me joining personia was a pivot away from some other much larger organizations I'd worked with historically.
  • 00:03:00so i came from salesforce prior to personio.
  • 00:03:09Billion dollar organizations like adp who pay one in one in ten americans.
  • 00:03:14so it's really a shift into the business where.
  • 00:03:18There is much more speed there's much more autonomy and we can do much more experimentation.
  • 00:03:22i move much faster which obviously given that, we all need to be thinking.
  • 00:03:33And would you agree that the digital experience title is fairly new?
  • 00:03:37because I checked on LinkedIn how much head of Digital Experience there are, and it couldn't find like that many?
  • 00:03:44So can you give us a little bit about what digital experience?
  • 00:03:49so obviously everybody could do something with words but... What's concept behind this?
  • 00:03:58i would say fairly new within the btb space but actually it's a term that's been around a little bit more in, And the reason for that change within my role was really because as we think about how the experience is evolving, and how the website is evolving.
  • 00:04:38The role of the website plays... How buyers are increasingly more aware in attaining to AI and attending other channels.
  • 00:04:44just start doing a lot of research before they even hit your web site.
  • 00:04:50It has bearing on what it looks like.
  • 00:04:54You know, I didn't want us to be stuck in the world of just thinking about a website because actually for me.
  • 00:05:01For my team we need to be thinking much more broadly than that so it's more to shape us for future reports coming next.
  • 00:05:07then let's tap into this topic already The web site topic.
  • 00:05:11So how important is the websites still for persona today and what do you think?
  • 00:05:15How important will the Web site be in the future?
  • 00:05:19Incredibly important, you know.
  • 00:05:20for us It's its still our biggest growth lever.
  • 00:05:23And the website The shop window versus all of our competitors although increasingly we see that shop window starting to diversify out into other channels.
  • 00:05:33you know there's a lot about the channels now that.
  • 00:05:36Bias are able to or prospective buyers were able to go too before they, Before they reach your website.
  • 00:05:41so and still very important still very much the source if truth for how we want it?
  • 00:05:48to represent ourselves and talk about ourselves in the market as well.
  • 00:05:52So, in terms of future importance I don't see that changing.
  • 00:05:56if anything i see the website becoming increasingly important even If The Role Of That Website Changes.
  • 00:06:01And what do you think?
  • 00:06:02how will it change with basically LLMs or AI chatbots being maybe more a go-to interface people interact With?
  • 00:06:12um, the pulse content from the website.
  • 00:06:16So how do you see that basically changing?
  • 00:06:19How we have to think about the Web site or We Have To Work With The Website?
  • 00:06:22Yeah this is- This Is The Thing I Find Kind Of You Know Most Interesting At The Minute And That Actually Keeps Me- It Keeps me Awake At Night.
  • 00:06:29The Most Is Thinking About What Is That Role In The Future?
  • 00:06:32and You Know What Does The Websites Become?
  • 00:06:34If I Think Even About The Shift And Evolution That We're Seeing in A Lot of Sites Now Where... It's becoming the norm to see a prompt box on home pages where people are straightaway jumping into building.
  • 00:06:49I think we're naturally starting to see rises in things like AI chatbots, we've seen rises in LLMs and their ability to do agentic browsing at our behalf as well.
  • 00:07:00so naturally then thinking about what that means for the website experience and user expectations when they come to the web site?
  • 00:07:05For me it means that you gotta start thinking how those user expectations are revolving and what we then have to build for that.
  • 00:07:13So, you know do we still push users through a curated path?
  • 00:07:18Do things like a website navigation need to exist in the future or actually do we lean more into kind of prompt-based searching and more heavily intersearch?
  • 00:07:27is there... A world where we should be getting much more personalized and providing a much deeper level of personalization?
  • 00:07:36You know that the kind of typical playbook is btb sass which we're gonna build some pages, gated assets.
  • 00:07:44We are going to point you a product page and ultimately hope your fill in request form for demo.
  • 00:07:50then naturally ways should be thinking about how we curate our experience much more heavily?
  • 00:07:56And now even more heavily in the BTC world.
  • 00:08:00Spotify have just launched their ability prompt-based personalization as well.
  • 00:08:06And that is going to become the norm, it's what people are gonna become used to and we see search crews on Google expanding and the type of queries people are searching for a much deeper.
  • 00:08:18there's more depth generally to content discovery so We have to be prepared.
  • 00:08:27And
  • 00:08:31do you think there are things we have to unlearn when we think about the website experience?
  • 00:08:35So if I'm thinking about SEO, what we had to unlearning was basically over-focusing on keywords and like key words being the predominant factor for ranking.
  • 00:08:44Then we moved to topical coverage
  • 00:08:46etc.,
  • 00:08:46now.
  • 00:08:47obviously they're other changes with AI search but Do You Think That We Have To Unlearn Principles Like How We Designed And How We Basically Conceptualized The Website?
  • 00:08:56so i Was Thinking Maybe It's A Stupid Idea But Do we maybe have to write content in Markdown?
  • 00:09:02In the future, if an agent is like from now.
  • 00:09:09We look at the traffic split by mobile desktop tablet and then in the future will get the traffic spread by Agent & Human And The Agent can understand Markdown better.
  • 00:09:18So Can you give me a little bit of your thinking about stuff that might hold true The longest and that we might have to unlearn for the future.
  • 00:09:27If you're thinking about it, the immediate term SEO in conventional SEO I don't think is going anywhere right like still proportionally if you look across And the split of LLM traffic versus Conventional SEO traffic on your Google's of the world, okay?
  • 00:09:43It's still heavily biased in conventional seo obviously but with naturally yeah You know i think comes a shift the type of content and as i mentioned you know that the depth of content we have to we have two curate and think about but also.
  • 00:10:01Not just a content on site with the content exists offsite end quite often, in the traditional seo world that's been limited.
  • 00:10:10so things like back linking and being able make sure that weekend and secure links back from hide domain authority websites.
  • 00:10:17where is now?
  • 00:10:18we should be thinking much more abou.
  • 00:10:23how are we showing up in search?
  • 00:10:24generally, not necessarily.
  • 00:10:25How will be showing up?
  • 00:10:26In search for our website and for a specific domain so that encompasses things like listicle websites and third-party review sites even Wikipedia pages as you alluded to earlier right.
  • 00:10:39I think there's a real need to think more holistically about SEO and content optimization across the board.
  • 00:10:48i would then also say two point around keywords.
  • 00:10:51Definitely, you know starting to shift away from just pure play conventional keyword targeting tool.
  • 00:10:57So look at how we can focus more specifically on that kind of interconnected network is topic clustered content around particular focus areas and that again could encompass one specific page.
  • 00:11:13it can encompass multiple pages but if probably also covers areas the maybe wouldn't have considered previously.
  • 00:11:19so things like The the about us section of your website or you press release pages all some of that kind legacy content exist on your site might actually be negatively impacting your studio and your other than visibility now.
  • 00:11:31And so things like content pruning increasingly important being able to, To make sure that the narrative we spin across All those different pages tells same story.
  • 00:11:43if talking the smaller end of the market and your website proposition doesn't all reflect that, then you're going to confuse SEO.
  • 00:11:52You are gonna confuse real LLM.
  • 00:11:53so you just have think more holistically about how those things stitch together.
  • 00:11:57Speaking off brand narrative or like narratives in general on messaging I Think it's a fundamental shift where if someone was for example using Google Or whatever search engine they were searching For something And They Were coming To our site We basically had full control over what they see In The messaging we use.
  • 00:12:14Now you Have this layer Before that, which could be AI overview on Google.
  • 00:12:19Which would be AI mode?
  • 00:12:19Which is basically a curated response based on the own content we have in our site and based on third-party sites.
  • 00:12:29So how do you think about that?
  • 00:12:30Have you significantly shifted resources being time people tooling whatever towards Third party sites And what can share your approach specifically?
  • 00:12:46you know, just coming back to that point I made earlier around that holistic view be it on-site or off-site.
  • 00:12:51And then firstly comes with starting with trying to understand what that perception is and sometimes yes there are tools out there that can help this the kind of peaks, the profounds et cetera over the world.
  • 00:13:06but... The most logical starting point actually a lot where we started was through Reverse prompting and through trying to kind of go through those lm's in the google search platforms.
  • 00:13:18so understand if we searched for x. So ultimately you know how do i want to be perceived?
  • 00:13:23what is the result that comes up with a people coming out from one of the sighted sources that are coming up, and not where u uncover then some other areas there perhaps you would have overlooked previously.
  • 00:13:32so mentioned your legacy.
  • 00:13:34press releases or legacy wikipedia pages etc.
  • 00:13:36refer to you in particular way.
  • 00:13:40Sense of okay, so how are we being perceived versus?
  • 00:13:43How do you want to be perceived?
  • 00:13:44and then from there it's about as You say just aligning that focus on the resource to try and bridge some of those gaps.
  • 00:13:52So We absolutely looking into more Of the offsite work in representation than previously.
  • 00:14:03things like Wikipedia pages probably would have been left And perhaps a brand team or an internal comms team kind of in days gone by, but now is part of our overall content strategy.
  • 00:14:14If we think about the offsite review websites and although they've always been important to quality of those reviews that types have reviews that were capturing all paint a picture for us so that's increasingly important also.
  • 00:14:30We even looked at doing experimentation with things like Reddit communities in some of the early days as well, when everybody jumped on that bandwagon and suddenly Reddit was full of spam from AI.
  • 00:14:43But that in-and-of itself is another learning.
  • 00:14:47So I think always just trying to learn, always try into test new mechanisms but... The other thing The results change daily, literally.
  • 00:14:58We've monitored the same sort of prompts and responses that come up in Google AI overviews for example.
  • 00:15:05it can change on a daily basis so you're always having to learn and test and optimise.
  • 00:15:10I think thats another shift from days of SEO optimisation.
  • 00:15:18now is that You changed something.
  • 00:15:20an LLM could pick it up instantly whereas previously used submit a page for index into Google and then sit in monitor SEM rush obsessively, search console to see whether it had been picked up.
  • 00:15:32Whether you'd have the traction that you wanted whereas now you can obviously some of that overnight.
  • 00:15:37so learnings are much higher proportionally which is great for us.
  • 00:15:41Can we share specifics about Wikipedia discovery because this I already found intriguing when talk before hit record button?
  • 00:15:49Yeah, yeah of course.
  • 00:15:50So I think the thing that was really interesting for us there is depending on some other markets.
  • 00:15:56you search in and... Some of the LLM perception of personia where we were geared up to serve small renders market so very much SMBs but they're out here.
  • 00:16:12is this though?
  • 00:16:13We actually served a lot broader businesses than our sweet spot.
  • 00:16:18core ICP is actually within the mid-market, typically.
  • 00:16:21And a lot of reason for that perception in LLM platforms was because one line with our Wikipedia page.
  • 00:16:29so there's few things we took as learnings.
  • 00:16:33just when you think about how kinda correlates across some of the other types of pages that you may have out there or people may have created talking about your comparison websites.
  • 00:16:51The dreaded competitor comparisons all listicles as well, All of that content is being used to shape how LLM's perceived.
  • 00:16:59so it could only take one competitive article on a third party listicle to say X brand is designed for Ex part of the market to undo a lot of your broader strategy, particularly if it's a publication that is held in high regard.
  • 00:17:17So its really important again.
  • 00:17:19you know kind of look holistically at how are being cited and referenced by a lot those other third parties as well.
  • 00:17:25Now Wikipedia obviously super sensitive topic because has gained very good reputation but also led to it being fed into the training data of LLMs due to moderation and community-led approach that not everybody can just go through a platform, say what they want to have said about themselves.
  • 00:17:46So how did you approach?
  • 00:17:48where are looking for other sources?
  • 00:17:51That would balance line more or share something.
  • 00:17:56if people listening also operate in bigger businesses like Personio And they have Wikipedia pages and might also have a legacy or some sort of untrue perception that is shaped by that.
  • 00:18:12Yeah, I think you just touched on it there.
  • 00:18:15Wikipedia obviously has built their trust in for the most part authenticity and impartiality.
  • 00:18:25so you have to maintain kinda sales listing page with a load of marketing content, it has to be factual and actually based on reference back to cited sources.
  • 00:18:40So that's typically what you can do when you point at things like even some your own press releases for example as cited source is talk about credibility and maximise the credibility of points they are making its still all subject For review, you know.
  • 00:19:00typically is actually better to get a third party or someone impartial.
  • 00:19:04To submit those responses for you because it's all heavily moderated by third parties.
  • 00:19:09so I think that the good thing cause ultimately stops as you say everybody just going out and being able to build whatever type of content they want.
  • 00:19:20us sit on Wikipedia.
  • 00:19:21but Yeah, generally speaking being able to reference some of those existing cited sources you've got if you done internal research or a few published white papers and reports that.
  • 00:19:30Talked only at the point still claims it trying to make so pressure leases all about sort information is publicly, publicly visible and are all things they can use to ultimately corroborate the points he tried making them.
  • 00:19:44Now let's look at the perspective of the buyers a little bit more because we thought about, um... The AI overviews and-and the chativity responses basically making it I would say maybe more challenging or at least more.
  • 00:19:58Um like you have to spend A Little Bit More Time on thinking About How To Shape Your Brand Narrative Because It'S Not Just What i Say On My Site Is The Truth And Nothing But The Truth So To Say Um, but looking at it from the buyer perspective.
  • 00:20:11It's also a window into even more information being compelled for me.
  • 00:20:17so how do you think about?
  • 00:20:18How that will change basically the expectations and also the behavior of buyers in their research journey?
  • 00:20:25Yeah
  • 00:20:26So I uh i think The biggest the biggest changer And i see Even In My Even In Myself Is That the expectation around speed and as I mentioned before depth of content is much higher now.
  • 00:20:42When you can go as deep in an LLM platform, that starts to outweigh conventional personalization channels historically would need to look at intent data or use a personalization engine for a certain degree.
  • 00:21:00understanding about a buyer then tailor their experience accordingly whereas They have the ability to do a lot of that for themselves.
  • 00:21:08And I think, To then land on a website where having done some of their research...to them and on site we're ultimately.
  • 00:21:17you know You've got very preformed preconceived kind of journey for them but your trying to map out.
  • 00:21:25um i think those two things can clash quite heavily especially when You know in the sass space for example if people want to.
  • 00:21:35See the product, If they wanted see things like pricing and what's a kind of get into that level of detail?
  • 00:21:41And thats all hidden.
  • 00:21:42then it is hidden behind.
  • 00:21:43typical can be to these ass products flow them.
  • 00:21:47i think that can become a challenge but even more broadly.
  • 00:21:51I think you have to kind now understand there are lot about by research.
  • 00:21:58is your perspective.
  • 00:21:59my research is done on in those LLMs before they even reach your website.
  • 00:22:04So being able to influence that as best you can means the type of content that you're creating needs to evolve, so I mentioned things like pricing there and being able make sure that pricing information potentially is displayed or with a service within these LLM platforms provided by a third party or by someone other than yourself, that all of the information you're giving all the way through the funnel is completely accurate and ideally your source of truth for all of our information.
  • 00:22:38And I think we kind have to accept that naturally we will start seeing a diminishing top-of-funnel where some of the traffic coming into the website certainly would've been in research or very early research stage historically probably not gonna come to your website anymore.
  • 00:22:57it's all going happen in the lm platform right and so naturally that means then you start into gear or your website up to be even more of a. Direct conversion engine in some cases looking at how can u overcome, When
  • 00:23:18I think about how basically the whole digital buying experience changes now, I'm often times reminded of how offline buying experiences changed.
  • 00:23:28Where people that have walked into a store ten years ago maybe looked around and went to someone who offers consulting there and said hey you know i want buy this or that do some recommendations whereas And these people that are a little bit tech savvy, they go heavily pre-informed.
  • 00:23:46They go to the shop and already know what they want.
  • 00:23:49It's just a matter of do you have it in stock?
  • 00:23:52Or like?
  • 00:23:53can you basically deliver it to me or whatever questions people have?
  • 00:23:58Do You also see this analogy from that point?
  • 00:24:03What do think we could learn?
  • 00:24:04maybe from retail?
  • 00:24:05because Retail has already experienced for quite some time Before it came to digital.
  • 00:24:11Yeah,
  • 00:24:12that's a great analogy and I absolutely believe we're at the inflection point again.
  • 00:24:18For me That inflection does everything at some point natively start To make sense in an LLM.
  • 00:24:28Do you get to a world where Eventually maybe We just all providing databases of information to plug into an LLM platform and everything is surfaced within that sort of experience.
  • 00:24:42I think even if you look, like Baidu for example in WeChat some of the platforms exist out of APAC.
  • 00:24:53generally they've been much more heavily personalised world where a lot their research happens.
  • 00:25:03I feel like we're more and more kind of heading towards that sort of reality where, yeah why does someone need to go to ten different shop windows or websites if they can do it all from one place?
  • 00:25:16You see rises in things like cloud co-working.
  • 00:25:21you know agentic experiences were people could effectively build out their own personal assistance.
  • 00:25:31Agent mode to do my food shopping for me and it is so.
  • 00:25:36why would I?
  • 00:25:37yeah, Why would i need to go to some of the websites in the future?
  • 00:25:41The thing that.
  • 00:25:45Is still important and users still needs.
  • 00:25:49they still like human component.
  • 00:25:53They want to be able to tangibly see this they want to buy, particularly when it comes to software and I'm speaking purely to the SaaS space at the moment.
  • 00:26:05But SaaS is complex for a lot of businesses, particularly larger organizations with complex requirements.
  • 00:26:12you can't necessarily just buy new software solution on the basis of a quick demo like ultimately... You need to dig into that in a lot more detail but i still believe LLN platforms natively, which to your point cuts out a lot of the high street browsing as it would have existed previously.
  • 00:26:36And do you see people actually booking a demo at Personio within the chat GPT interface?
  • 00:26:45So not just asking for what's the best HR platform etc.
  • 00:26:50then obviously Personio shows up And then clicking to the side or searching for person you and I'm going through this site, but actually completing that conversion.
  • 00:26:59Within chachi bt any time soon?
  • 00:27:02i mean who knows but ultimately why not?
  • 00:27:06yeah y'know why would they not do like it does happen?
  • 00:27:10um...i think there's a missing part of the gap.
  • 00:27:16their thing could be..they often wanna see before they try.
  • 00:27:21so You know that's not a long way away.
  • 00:27:24We're certainly not a million miles off, That level of kind of integration into LLMs like chat GPT etc.
  • 00:27:32so yeah I can see it being pretty viable.
  • 00:27:36you might even end up with things like marketplaces or what are built in to those LLMS directly or natively where people as they say feeding some information and then its getting served right?
  • 00:27:50I think it's a really interesting space at the minute.
  • 00:27:53There is no telling where these things will get to, but part of that barrier would be just native adoption of LLMs and i don't have good sense what current LLM adoption rates look like across different core parts.
  • 00:28:16our audience or certainly within kind of, you know B to be it's BSAS companies how heavily they're leaning into some of these things.
  • 00:28:23But that gap is only gonna narrow over the next twelve to eighteen months.
  • 00:28:28also I know like the vast majority people who speak to now do a lot of their early research with in those LLM platforms.
  • 00:28:34so hey i can fully see that becoming reality at someplace
  • 00:28:39and we should also feel used to be more like a performance or tech play, where you were looking for the latest hack and then the latest edge.
  • 00:28:52And how could maybe in a way trick the algorithm too now?
  • 00:28:56The whole space becoming more brand-aware.
  • 00:29:00so we have to think about How certain company is perceived across multiple sources.
  • 00:29:05We have to shape their narrative.
  • 00:29:07I feel just if i look at conversations that are happening around topic it's much less Or at least from, it's my personal perspective.
  • 00:29:15It's much less about.
  • 00:29:17there is this one technical thing and they're like the keyword density and this and that And then more like brand narrative in third party sites and review site on all of them.
  • 00:29:26So what your perspective?
  • 00:29:28Yeah its almost kind of blended a few different worlds That perhaps would have been more disconnected previously.
  • 00:29:36Right.
  • 00:29:36so to you point I think Brand Perception Reputation Management But also conventional kind of SEO and content strategy are all overlapping a lot more heavily than they did previously.
  • 00:29:49I think naturally, there is still hacks out there in their still things that happening to try and kinda hack the algorithm because it's still changing rapidly but... Naturally you know i've seen alot of those.
  • 00:30:07even if immediate spikes as a result of some of those hacks, generally they soon get leveled out again longer term.
  • 00:30:16So I think being able to more heavily now align across areas like brand conventional SEO, AEO and tech SEO optimization is still super important.
  • 00:30:30just maybe we've probably dialed up in slightly different areas there.
  • 00:30:35so previously it would have been making sure that tech health was in order.
  • 00:30:42Now it's more, okay we're using the right structured data.
  • 00:30:45is schema markup being used effectively?
  • 00:30:46to your earlier point should we be testing?
  • 00:30:49Markdown specifically for LLMs and specific crawl looking at crawl past that LLM are taking across the website some of those sort stuff.
  • 00:30:58so I don't think anything that anyone really has been doing historically of an up-waiting.
  • 00:31:08now into content delivery and strategy.
  • 00:31:13And as I say, that offsite content strategy has probably evolved more than anything else at the moment because it's so important.
  • 00:31:22We obviously touched already a lot on AI as channel especially like AI search.
  • 00:31:28but you also mentioned AI for example, where you do grocery shopping with Agent Mode which is obviously something that makes a lot of sense.
  • 00:31:39Sometimes when I get home from work and want to make nice dinner This would be something that AI definitely helps with.
  • 00:31:56Unfortunately, it's still hard in the physical world but anyway we're drifting off.
  • 00:32:02One of the obvious use cases also in marketing when it comes to using AIS a tool is content generation.
  • 00:32:08this Is Something That I think Also Was one Of The earliest Things.
  • 00:32:11We Used It For Either Drafting This Like Campaign Email Campaign a newsletter thing, we may be used for drafting like a poem or something.
  • 00:32:22Some things work better some things worked not so well.
  • 00:32:25So I'd like to get your take on AI generated content?
  • 00:32:30Do you think it's basically Something that We shouldn't lean into You shouldn't use?
  • 00:32:36Or do you think It is definitely That has To Be part of the future marketing?
  • 00:32:46Ultimately, I do believe it should ultimately be part of the future over marketing.
  • 00:32:51It comes with a heavy caveat that still has to follow all conventional rules around good content creation and needs to be authentic or trustworthy the right signals for it to be valuable.
  • 00:33:12For a real person as well, there's an LLM and I think you can get through that point with AI but a lot of depends on how well trained your AI is?
  • 00:33:23And ultimately some people will lean into just jumping straight in chat GPT blog post or an article, or a listicle of whatever it may be.
  • 00:33:35And they fed in very little source material so just churns out and regurgitates the stuff that already exists on market.
  • 00:33:42if you're plugging into your own data sources conversations with any learning from customers potentially to case studies research brand tone of voice and guidelines like previous examples have content that you've created over time, it will become much more intelligent.
  • 00:34:07And the quality about pool becomes stronger as well.
  • 00:34:11I think thats where is really helps with speed execution particularly in world of AEO.
  • 00:34:16were wanna be able to spin up tweaks and changes to content that previously would have had.
  • 00:34:23So we've gone through some, some crazy workflow like ideally you should be in a position where you can identify what's on of those areas should be the content gaps?
  • 00:34:32And like within twenty minutes it is built on your website and its updated and live right Like That's The Future.
  • 00:34:41But It has To Still Be Relevant And Of High Quality.
  • 00:34:46I think there Is A Lot Of Stuff Out There At The Minute Doesn't doesn't solve for that gap, you know typically see the any of that kind of slot content That gets spun up very quickly may have an immediate Ranking benefit and or may having a media benefit in terms of kind of citation in in LLMs But then that that soon drops off afterwards like I've seen numerous examples with where this happened.
  • 00:35:10And why do you think that is?
  • 00:35:11So many people still Do The do the content with AI.
  • 00:35:16It's not fat with a lot of context and not fit with actual customer conversations, everything you just mentioned.
  • 00:35:24You described exactly how we should do it?
  • 00:35:28And still I see people when they check sites or look at the content that is actually on these sides... ...I can really smell this slop!
  • 00:35:38So why does it happen?
  • 00:35:40Because models available to all us.
  • 00:35:43They are so powerful now, GPT-Five point three five point four Claude Sonnet.
  • 00:35:49Four point six.
  • 00:35:50Opus four point six.
  • 00:35:51these were super powerful models that everybody can access basically with a ten euro or twenty Euro subscription a month.
  • 00:35:56So it's not the financial issue obviously
  • 00:36:00No I think there is probably numerous reasons for.
  • 00:36:04but in some cases It could be people relatively early on that AI maturity curve generally wanting to wanting to get involved and wanting to try something new, test something but not necessarily having all of the broader context around.
  • 00:36:20what does that actually mean?
  • 00:36:21What good content versus kind AI slop look like.
  • 00:36:26Maybe they're putting too much trust in what the AI is coming back with then not realizing it's probably built off ten of the same bits of content already exist out there at market right now.
  • 00:36:39so I think the level of integration that you can do within some these tools is organization dependent.
  • 00:36:48There's a lot companies I speak to and even very large, very tech focused organizations... I would say laggards in terms of AI adoption ultimately.
  • 00:37:01so they don't have integrations or data sources.
  • 00:37:05there are more trust.
  • 00:37:09issue around AI generally, so naturally what they're feeding it is not going to create as powerful a model for them.
  • 00:37:21So I think those are couple of areas and then the other might just be Feeling the pressure in the urgency of.
  • 00:37:35you know we need to do a i stuff and that's probably something is echoed within their companies as well.
  • 00:37:40as there are organizations looking around.
  • 00:37:43other company said talking about ai.
  • 00:37:45You see the echo chamber on linkedin.
  • 00:37:47everybody now that isn't an expert.
  • 00:37:49so does naturally this kind of almost unspoken peer pressure of everybody looking at, do some stuff and show that we're using AI.
  • 00:38:03So I'm going to create some AI articles, then get them out there as quickly as possible and see what
  • 00:38:07happens.".
  • 00:38:08That naturally is still happening.
  • 00:38:11And the more mature companies when it comes to AI usage and adoption have probably they've already been through that learning experience and come at other sides are now starting to refine their content models whereas there's something in that journey of the minute for themselves, ultimately.
  • 00:38:31And what would you say?
  • 00:38:32How can people build more resilience against that outside pressure?
  • 00:38:36because I talked to like from junior to head of two director to sea level and nobody is immune to that.
  • 00:38:45so they're individual People.
  • 00:38:48some are more somewhere less.
  • 00:38:49but What Would You Say?
  • 00:38:50Because Obviously Being Just Driven By Every Next LinkedIn Post Is Not A Good Strategy.
  • 00:38:57But Still I think a lot of people can relate to that.
  • 00:39:01Damn, maybe i should look into co-work more?
  • 00:39:04Maybe i should build something with cloud code... ...maybe i should do that.
  • 00:39:07but then you look at your schedule and you only see so much time being free!
  • 00:39:12So what can you share also from personal experience on.. ..what people could do around building more resilience?
  • 00:39:19Yeah i think it comes down to In some cases that the individual right but also just generally speaking i would say having having curiosity so you know wanting to kind of go out there and understand.
  • 00:39:38This of their own volition before it gets to a point where there's a link in post that pops up and they're like, uh you know damnit.
  • 00:39:43I need said i need to do that or before the c-suite?
  • 00:39:45will somebody else sees this?
  • 00:39:47is that linked in post?
  • 00:39:48i think he was important.
  • 00:39:50i think if your learning new experimenting for yourself then u can even get ahead over lot ove alot those things and i think truly thing about what problems are that you actually want to solve with ai as opposed to what is the ai That we wanna try and get to solve a problem?
  • 00:40:05if that makes sense like i think ultimately you will know what u should be able to kind of no within your, automate and reduce a lot of the manual work or pressure, et cetera.
  • 00:40:29And I think that's where then you can start to do more of that learning and then take the learning in.
  • 00:40:35you can build on that ultimately.
  • 00:40:37but when it comes to broader pressures trying be ahead of that curve spend time experimenting even just your personal life realize some value.
  • 00:40:53Yeah, try not to get too distracted by the noise that's out there.
  • 00:40:56Just focus on what.
  • 00:40:58are they key problems you actually want to solve using AR?
  • 00:41:01And how do you think about like marketing org of future because I see more and more conversations going around Do we still need junior roles Because we can use AI for that We can deploy agents etc.
  • 00:41:16And I mean, obviously also in your role looking at your team.
  • 00:41:20Maybe you're also looking other teams and personia or the teams that you talk to are.
  • 00:41:27what would you say?
  • 00:41:28What still holds true for the future about what we learned... ...what makes a strong marketing arc.. ..and what do you think is one of the biggest changes happening currently?
  • 00:41:37Yeah!
  • 00:41:39kind of very high level.
  • 00:41:41without going into too many specifics.
  • 00:41:43I think ultimately for me it would be that, its just a change or an evolution in terms.
  • 00:41:50everybody's role and what i mean by that is the natural marketing has gone through this shift over past ten years more.
  • 00:42:00anyway where we've seen rises in also we see falls areas were Previously, you know everybody was more of a T-shaped marketer.
  • 00:42:11I remember when i first started out.
  • 00:42:15the digital markets at that time were responsible for everything from website optimization through to performance media campaign builds like whole host if different things and then naturally over time A lot of roles have become much more specialized.
  • 00:42:30And I think now what we found is that AI helps to smooth out some of that experience layer a little bit.
  • 00:42:40To the point where people are starting become more T-shaped again, suddenly you've got... People who had great ideas and were able to prototype or bring those ideas into life.
  • 00:42:50You have people with content writers but now can be more content writer.
  • 00:42:54People previously weren't analytical so they're much more analytical because they use AI to help them.
  • 00:43:00So I don't see there necessarily being shift.
  • 00:43:04Do we need to remove junior roles or do you need certain roles?
  • 00:43:07I think it's probably more a case of just everybody is on, again that maturity curve of AI adoption in the level of T-shaped marketer they're able be.
  • 00:43:20Maybe end up with slightly less silos and typical subteams within marketing.
  • 00:43:25but actually perhaps everyone has project particular area of focus aligns, but actually they can own a much broader email scope within their own world.
  • 00:43:37Who knows not sure just yet.
  • 00:43:40and do you think everybody has to become a coder with codex or Claude Cote?
  • 00:43:46I don't think anybody has the beam.
  • 00:43:48i think everyone should be.
  • 00:43:51Yeah
  • 00:43:52even content writer
  • 00:43:53yeah i think.
  • 00:43:54so i think i think every body can really kind benefit from building and shipping in learning and kind of understanding what that's like.
  • 00:44:06And again, not even necessarily a business context in their own personal life but being able to bring something to life the existing your mind you wanna build tangibly is super rewarding.
  • 00:44:19there are lot people who have been able do it previously.
  • 00:44:24so going through Going through that experience and building something, just kind of learning more about the process.
  • 00:44:34Even using it as a tool to bring any idea you have in life... The amount of times I've used cloud code or lovable or whatever else to articulate vision around something Or skip building a slide deck and build an interactive report or dashboard.
  • 00:44:54But God said it's so helpful.
  • 00:44:59It doesn't mean that everything you build has to be something taken and shipped directly, like sometimes is just a better way of visualising something or bringing your idea into life.
  • 00:45:11We even have been playing around with shipping for prototyping much more heavily in code as opposed doing all the prototyping in Figma which helps us jump straight.
  • 00:45:26Okay, so what are the actual functional requirements?
  • 00:45:31What's the behavior like?
  • 00:45:33how does that feel or just experience feels outside of having to build a lot of stuff in Figma.
  • 00:45:37So I think there is a lot use cases across every department and role it could benefit from.
  • 00:45:43coding more broadly.
  • 00:45:45Really loveable has this mission?
  • 00:45:50basically everybody can be your creator And like AI is your creativity enabler, so to say.
  • 00:45:56Would you agree with that?
  • 00:45:57Yeah I would.
  • 00:45:58yeah definitely.
  • 00:45:59um i mean you obviously need
  • 00:46:01the...
  • 00:46:02You still need the ideas!
  • 00:46:04You still needs be able kind of think what's this thing that want me build?
  • 00:46:09and none other than Any of the tools out there are truly production ready in any capacity just yet.
  • 00:46:18I think that will come eventually, but i don't know they're at the moment.
  • 00:46:20But it does mean yeah everybody can be a builder.
  • 00:46:23Everybody comes up with something or bring their idea to life.
  • 00:46:29It's so common you have conversation with a friend or colleague and they say i've got this great idea that I wish I'd shipped so.
  • 00:46:39I thought of the idea been done, which I created because somebody else has done it now and that's where this company is come from.
  • 00:46:46end doesn't solve for all of them but certainly help people take step in right
  • 00:46:50direction.
  • 00:46:51okay thats very interesting and like to get your thoughts on something that I have been pondering little bit over last weeks month because I feel like AI and creativity, a lot of people are skeptical about that.
  • 00:47:04two words in the same sentence.
  • 00:47:06But i actually felt there were lots of people from the corporate world so to say have been... So we tell them how they think outside-of-the box but don't really want us to do their job as quickly as possible.
  • 00:47:23Now when you look at my own team at Radiant they experienced what AI enables them to do and exactly to your point, you have an idea.
  • 00:47:35And you see that you can bring it to life the more you train that muscle of creating ideas off not limiting Your creativity?
  • 00:47:45I had this same experience very early in my career when i was building websites for people... ...I always felt like okay.. ..I cannot propose something that I cannot build and I limited myself heavily.
  • 00:47:57And then at some point, it was just... It was twenty-fourteen.
  • 00:48:00so way before i made the switch!
  • 00:48:03I felt like you cannot limit yourself to what your able build today.
  • 00:48:07You have to propose whats best Then figure out how to build afterwards.
  • 00:48:12So do feel that makes sense in any way?
  • 00:48:16What I said
  • 00:48:18is
  • 00:48:18something where people need to built muscle.
  • 00:48:21We had to build visionary muscles a little bit more again.
  • 00:48:24Yeah, it definitely resonates because I think there's probably a lot of people out that thing about.
  • 00:48:31they have those ideas.
  • 00:48:33Be for campaign landing page or brand campaign whatever else might be like.
  • 00:48:39this is always a lot.
  • 00:48:41creativity exists but the barriers pop up are probably.
  • 00:48:46is that gonna be too much work for the team?
  • 00:48:49Is it going to cost you money, or require extra budget.
  • 00:48:52Is there something they don't have capacity support on?
  • 00:48:56therefore what's the point of suggesting I'm not gonna bother and stays in their notebook.
  • 00:49:01so i think thats thing this helps overcome.
  • 00:49:06we see some great examples even within personia where people who've had these ideas been able to jump into core code or prototype something up and share it out across the team.
  • 00:49:21And actually people are like, damn yeah that's great!
  • 00:49:24Yeah let us build this.
  • 00:49:25Let us focus on doing
  • 00:49:25it.".
  • 00:49:26I think that is really powerful about these tools.
  • 00:49:32Don't get me wrong... It can potentially become chaotic in future if you end up in a world where suddenly everybody at the company is prototyping stuff they want to build but still don't.
  • 00:49:45Those ideas flying around is a bad thing as long you can actually operationalize it and bring them to life, which often the blocker.
  • 00:49:57It helps build that creative muscle in people who start thinking more about what's next evolution?
  • 00:50:13Which particularly in the world of kind of marketing and where been digital is, something that everybody enjoys doing and ultimately is why everybody got into the business in the first place.
  • 00:50:23Yeah, I don't want to switch seats with a head of engineering because i cannot imagine the amount of commits and pull requests etc.
  • 00:50:32on github That you get if Everybody In The Engineering or goes To Cloud Code Or Codex And They Can Just Like Bump Out Ten X The Code In The Same Time Even We If we Do A Little Bit Of like Internal Tooling And We Have To Coordinate Between True Three People Obviously we're not engineers, but this already feels like on the edge of being genius and being madness.
  • 00:50:57So
  • 00:50:58yeah... Yeah I think the exciting prospect there is that.
  • 00:51:03so as it stands at the minute i agree.
  • 00:51:07That probably causes some pain particularly if a lot quality code isn't necessarily up to standard.
  • 00:51:14you've got considerations around kind of security and broader integration into tech stack, things like that.
  • 00:51:20But again
  • 00:51:22if you just
  • 00:51:23look forward to the not too distant future in being able to make sure there's nothing to stop building an agent is trained on your code base integrated into a web CMS or whatever else such that You can give people the autonomy code base ultimately and your own integrations input.
  • 00:51:50so you move away from someone building something in loveable and sending it to your engineering team game.
  • 00:51:55please can you build this thing for me.
  • 00:51:57To them having to then completely rebuild a different scratch to two ultimately some someone that can, build up or certainly kind of get something very heavily heavily the right direction if they want to build exists based on the code base already is there.
  • 00:52:16so The thing is, again it's an exciting time.
  • 00:52:20Let us tap into one aspect of SEO AI search before we wrap up the conversation a little bit which basically how to balance investment being at money-time people on team.
  • 00:52:36between these two like between SEO and between AI Search.
  • 00:52:40I mean even uh, should we keep doing what we did for SEO?
  • 00:52:46Should be completely lean into a search et cetera.
  • 00:52:48So how do you balance that in your team at Personio?
  • 00:52:53Yeah I think the-the-the balance for us really is all of it.
  • 00:52:59The common layer that spans both those things Is content and good quality content right.
  • 00:53:05so That's where its important to be making some of that investment.
  • 00:53:14SEO strategy, AEO strategy both very heavily aligned and the tooling then is deployed to monitor across those different things so you can make sure they're right decisions equally important.
  • 00:53:30but all of this falls over if we don't have people who actually write or create content.
  • 00:53:35To our earlier point, yes.
  • 00:53:36You can do some of that using AI but you still need to bake in things like deep localization and get supermarket specific work very closely with obviously your regional teams in certainly our instance But your product marketers Your subject matter experts internally.
  • 00:54:00So having strong content creators and coordinators that can help with that is kind of the key area.
  • 00:54:08And certainly where we're, as I say investing some at that time.
  • 00:54:12And then AI wraps around all of that as well.
  • 00:54:16it's other areas so were very focused on.
  • 00:54:18how can we streamline those content operations using AI much possible?
  • 00:54:24How could potentially explore bringing that AI content generation to to life in a way where it is trained.
  • 00:54:34It's kind of fully ramped on all the different content data points that we have or sources, so that we can build and ship them into hours not days weeks or months generally speaking but contents at heart for sure.
  • 00:54:52And if you look at things have entered the conversation, so to say around AI search.
  • 00:54:58So one thing you mentioned earlier also Reddit red community engagement if you want to call it like that.
  • 00:55:06and then on the other hand something I mean there are lots of things but just give two examples.
  • 00:55:11thinking about a third party mentions more news outlets mention new stories which can basically push their what do think temporarily hyped and things that have come to stay.
  • 00:55:27Good
  • 00:55:28question, yeah.
  • 00:55:28so I would say there's been a lot of hype around as you know and just mentioned certainly some community sites like Reddit we saw very early on everybody suddenly downed.
  • 00:55:44tools in their content strategy evolved into how can we spam the comment threads?
  • 00:55:49I do think that has, thats already peaked and yes you still see reddit sighted pretty readily.
  • 00:55:57but i would say some of the community management aspect is probably biggest hype there.
  • 00:56:05Is now kind shifted into more conventional onsite content strategy work like im seeing your own website if it's created well as a bigger influence in a big bearing than some of those some of those third parties now, depending on the channel.
  • 00:56:23Then Google still leans quite heavily into Reddit particularly with AI overviews.
  • 00:56:27but certainly a lot of chat GPTs and stuff like lean more in to first party sources.
  • 00:56:32I've found.
  • 00:56:34so i would say that aspect is probably one that's less immediately critical although we are working making sure areas social channels get adequate engagement.
  • 00:56:50And I would say areas like review sites and third party websites are still very, very much important and key.
  • 00:56:58There's two approaches to that.
  • 00:56:59one is you can encounter some of the content created there in use within your own website or go and obviously influence that content as it exists on a third-party site.
  • 00:57:13but those
  • 00:57:17And based on that, would you also say that improving and maybe adjusting the strategy around the content you have in your own site?
  • 00:57:28That this was at least until now the biggest lever you've pulled for your AI search visibility.
  • 00:57:36Yeah I still would say it's the biggest leaver but i definitely find our website has the biggest bearing visibility within our particular industry.
  • 00:57:48that may vary across different industries, but for us it's the biggest lever.
  • 00:57:53That is what I meant about being able to counter some of the content that exists out there at the minute and an example might be a third-party listicle website talking perfect solution for small businesses in Germany only, and to counter that we're able create content which actually talks about our presence on other markets.
  • 00:58:20It's the scale of what we operate with a large number of customers within the mid-market enterprise as well just like an example.
  • 00:58:31so those sorts of things then mean naturally you can count some of this preconception that the LLMs have.
  • 00:58:40But that said, you know the other angle is you'd go and partner with whoever.
  • 00:58:44The owner of that particular list to call us in your get it updated at that source as well.
  • 00:58:48then you've got two places where there's being referenced.
  • 00:58:52so thats kind a typical approach.
  • 00:58:55now we always want make this podcast as actual possible.
  • 00:58:59I think were already delivered on their promise.
  • 00:59:01but if fellow marketing leader came too you or listen to this podcast right now and said, hey we need to get serious all about AI search.
  • 00:59:12I feel like we are missing out there.
  • 00:59:14what would you tell them to do first?
  • 00:59:17I would actually say blockout depending on the level of research or work that you've already done.
  • 00:59:25even if you got no tooling You have no AI search monitoring tools as it stands.
  • 00:59:31Blockout half a day Or couple hours.
  • 00:59:36spend time reverse prompting within some of those lm platforms to understand how you're being perceived.
  • 00:59:42so why i mean by that is pretend ure a. Pretend your one of your customers and go in perform the number of different searches.
  • 00:59:49if things do you think your customer would be searching for, and see what shows up.
  • 00:59:54and when you see what show us ask why did you choose this?
  • 00:59:58why did it use those things like why did he pick those companies as listings?
  • 01:00:02and then if you are not on list ask why?
  • 01:00:04Why is X company, why was my company not in that list?
  • 01:00:08And it will give you some really kind of insightful information.
  • 01:00:11You can even then ask what did you use as the cited sources for that information and that gives an immediate sense than if... What are those offsite or onsite bits of content maybe doing you harm or causing your own issue?
  • 01:00:29from there you could do some actionable next steps without needing to go invest in a LLM platform.
  • 01:00:34Nice, I think that's definitely some solid piece of advice.
  • 01:00:39Now i have a final question and then always ask that I bluntly stole from Lenny's podcast who is the significantly better podcast host than I am.
  • 01:00:50so if ever come close to him... ...I can retire.
  • 01:00:55but my questions are what didn't we talk about?
  • 01:01:03That's a good question.
  • 01:01:05Thanks to Lenny,
  • 01:01:07thank you Lenny.
  • 01:01:08I would say that the thing we probably could talk about more is or should have talked about it a little bit more.
  • 01:01:17maybe measurement of all this stuff right?
  • 01:01:19So i think measurements are.
  • 01:01:23a lot of marketers get asked around LLM visibility in particular and AEO at the moment Probably more so than some conventional SEO SCO metrics and stats as it stands at the moment, but there's obviously a lot of different ways that you can measure AI and LLM visibility.
  • 01:01:39Is is it?
  • 01:01:40The number of citations...is your share or voice...?
  • 01:01:42Your overall visibility score or ranking..?
  • 01:01:46Is this position in which you appear in the prompt result like.. There are other things here.
  • 01:01:50I don't think anyone yet has truly locked on what is one metric we care about?
  • 01:01:56Because it sure as hell isn't going to be traffic coming from those channels.
  • 01:02:01I think there's a big shift that is happening, we still see decreases in like across every industry and more of the traffic coming through conventional organic traffic coming though other routes.
  • 01:02:19now you see declines in PPC traffic volume as AI overviews eat away at top page on Google.
  • 01:02:26so metrics, measurement tracking reporting in this particular space is super interesting I would say.
  • 01:02:33And can you share something about maybe things that you tried or things that do believe for Sonio like where are at with measurements?
  • 01:02:44Obviously some stuff doesn't hold anymore.
  • 01:02:46but what's still viable and should people think more?
  • 01:02:52Is it self-reported attribution?
  • 01:02:53Yeah, so there's
  • 01:02:58a few different things but I would say naturally carrying less about traffic generally.
  • 01:03:06That is the big adjustment that we've made.
  • 01:03:09it like traffic... Is bit of vanity metric.
  • 01:03:12We pivoted awhile ago to think more about high intent traffic.
  • 01:03:15So you know people who have that intent want to buy or convert.
  • 01:03:21And then more generally, you know we still care about obviously things like keyword rankings and visibility in what?
  • 01:03:27not from an SEO standpoint but.
  • 01:03:29More generally just looking at are we influencing the metrics that we care about which is ultimately a wee getting kind of MQLs and pipeline et cetera for their business?
  • 01:03:42That's stuff that we carry out with.
  • 01:03:45channel attribution has become slightly more fuzzy You know, naturally you would see that people would perhaps go from an LLM platform and then either come direct to the website or maybe they Google through a branded term and comes through organic.
  • 01:04:03Or they Googled through a Google branded term in comes repaid.
  • 01:04:05so I think naturally like there's more of that kind of fuzzy layer around channel specific attribution at the minute.
  • 01:04:13um yeah may be y'know At some point we'll look attribution or better ways to track that.
  • 01:04:22But for now, we're more focused on.
  • 01:04:24yeah are we ultimately kind of maximizing that share of voice and are we driving the conversion that we want
  • 01:04:30in?
  • 01:04:30Interesting!
  • 01:04:31James thanks so much for sharing with us all those other thoughts like also background stories.
  • 01:04:37really interesting what you shared.
  • 01:04:41if people wanted What's the best place to follow?
  • 01:04:51I would say probably LinkedIn, like bio means if people are interested or want more connect with me on LinkedIn.
  • 01:04:56Occasionally less than i should but occasionally a stick post out some of this sort stuff as well.
  • 01:05:01so bio means feel free to follow me there.
  • 01:05:06Nice okay then thanks so much.
  • 01:05:08guys and girls go to James Ward on LinkedIn.
  • 01:05:12we will obviously put link in description for podcast.
  • 01:05:17Connect with him, please don't spam him.
  • 01:05:20Only connect with generally interesting questions or something like that.
  • 01:05:25and James thanks so much for taking the time today.
  • 01:05:28it was a pleasure And hopefully we'll catch up soon
  • 01:05:32Likewise!
  • 01:05:32A pleasure.
  • 01:05:33Thank you Nethus.
  • 01:05:34Bye bye
  • 01:05:35James
  • 01:05:35See ya.